Pivot of DOOM! Help?

[skoddy]

  HI, all.  I've posted previously about a franken-oz I've been riding for awhile now that was built using K2 warranty hold over parts from here in the Seattle area.  I started to get some play in the swing arm pivot, and after looking into it a bit I don't recognize any of the parts when compared to the factory diagrams I've seen, or pictures I've seen of your bikes here.
  I'm thinking it may consist of random Evo parts, but I'm not sure.  It has a (snug fitting) solid axle, with threaded holes at both ends, rides on plastic (!) bushings....all held together with small bolts and very cheap (now very cupped) washers.   Any ideas what I've got shoved in there, or how to remedy the wiggle??  Thanks for any input!

[shovelon]

I have never seen parts like that in that style swingarm. What you need is a bushing kit. The bore looks OK in the swingarm, so the bushings should fit. You will be missing the bolts, cups, and shaft. Unless someone is willing to part with a complete set, I think you are stuck.

You might want to consider doing a "Simon's" sealed bearing conversion. I have done this on 2 bikes now and think this is the appropriate step. The killer is reaming out the diameters of the swingarm to fit the "off-the-shelf" sealed ball bearings. But the results are stunning.

Have you tried Iron Horse for parts?

Terry

[skoddy]

Thanks, Terry.  I tried to do some homework before posting and saw a lot of references to Simon's sealed bearing mod, but no specifics.  Over-boring the swing arm is pretty much out of my capabilities anyways, though if it came down to it I suppose I could find someone more useful than myself. 
  I did order a pivot kit/hanger not long after I got the bike, but it came with only the der. hanger that I really needed at the time-- and I never followed up on the missing pivot kit.  The thing is....whatever this pivot setup is-- it worked great until the bushings wore a bit. 
  If I did order bushings from Ironhorse, I'm not sure what bike to order them for--Evo, or...?   I really like the bike, so I'm going to have to figure something out.  I took off some odd (and incorrect) Noleen from the rear and fitted a Manitou Swinger last Spring. (Boing-boing.)  I was going to upgrade the forks this Spring, but it looks like I've got a more pivotal/pressing matter.  Baddum-bum.  Thanks again!

-S-

[Old Proflexer]

that's a new one on me for a carbon, and i've seen quite a few. 

that pivot is not too terribly complicated, two axle pivot cups (one for each side) and a cross bolt is about all that should be in there.
haven't checked in with k2 lately but a kit with the basic parts might still be available.
c/o the main pivot assembly for the 957 in the 'how to's' - the axle cups and cross bolt should be similar to those but not the rest of the stuff.
perhaps a call to the k2 tech department (number on their website) could get the parts to you

is that setup still loose when you tighten down the swingarm pinch bolts as per specs?

OP

[Simon]

Firstly all the new parts are wrong.
Secondly its unusual for the pivots to wear to the point that gives play and as already mentioned
that can easily be remedied by adjusting the pinch bolts.
All I can think off is (and hopefully this is it) the front dropout has become loose in the swingarm and needs
rebonding back in,nice easy fix, happened to me and gave the play you mentioned.

Other than that it can be the threaded inserts within the frame (that the swingarm bearings locate into) that have come loose or (and this has been known) broken,not such an easy fix.

You'll need to remove the swingarm to check this out, oh and the swingarms a pain to refit
you can checkout my solution to this here   http://idriders.com/proflex/smf/index.php?topic=296.0

[shovelon]

Firstly all the new parts are wrong.
Secondly its unusual for the pivots to wear to the point that gives play and as already mentioned
that can easily be remedied by adjusting the pinch bolts.
All I can think off is (and hopefully this is it) the front dropout has become loose in the swingarm and needs
rebonding back in,nice easy fix, happened to me and gave the play you mentioned.

Other than that it can be the threaded inserts within the frame (that the swingarm bearings locate into) that have come loose or (and this has been known) broken,not such an easy fix.

You'll need to remove the swingarm to check this out, oh and the swingarms a pain to refit
you can checkout my solution to this here   http://idriders.com/proflex/smf/index.php?topic=296.0

Skoddy, can you pull the swingarm away and make sure the threaded inserts are tight, and the flanged bearing retainers are there?

 A picture would help so we can see.

From there, it is just a matter of piecing together the remainder of parts.

I really need to convirm you have the mainframe complete.

Terry

[skoddy]

Men---I return bearing pivot porn

   Pictured is the bulk of my pivot system, sans swing arm.  The two large black anodized washers sit directly against the black anodized pieces fit into the frame.  The photos show parts in order of appearance, situated as seen from sitting on the bike.  The axle came out easy enough. It fits tightly, but so tight as to have to resort to any undue violence to extract it. It's hollow,quite light, and of course-- incorrect, as per the diagrams I've seen.
 
Simon--that was a good call regarding the dropouts--I didn't think of that. Unfortunately I didn't get off so easy this time, as mine are well bonded.  I've had to re-epoxy one of my rear dropouts, and have been surprised at how well that's held up.  As far as tightening the pinch bolts go, I feel that I had them pretty tight.  I don't own a torque wrench, so I'm just talking here...but I've kept them as tight as felt comfortable wrenching on an allen head.

Terry--I've taken more pictures, but tried to keep the size conservative.  Let me know if you'd like a closer look and I'll post a larger picture.  As you may have noticed, I'm far from an expert-- but the parts that remain in the frame look pretty official to me.  My guess is that the guy I bought the bike from came across it with that much installed already...and ad-libbed the rest from the K2 parts bins.  He had a lot of extra swing arms and things for sale, and if I'd know back then...

I can't help but think that I need to:  A) get a hold of some new bushings like the ones that were in there, because it did all seem to work well until they saw some wear (and dirt, by the looks of it) 
  or B) acquire all the parts that ought to have been in there in the first place, provided an outlet for said parts still exists.  Is Iron Horse still holding??

  The sealed bearing rig sounds like a fine idea from what I've heard, but likely out of my skill range/tool set, and/or budget

Well....whaddya think, guys?


Again--Many thanks!

-Scott-

[Simon]

Men---I return bearing pivot porn

   Pictured is the bulk of my pivot system, sans swing arm.  The two large black anodized washers sit directly against the black anodized pieces fit into the frame.  The photos show parts in order of appearance, situated as seen from sitting on the bike.  The axle came out easy enough. It fits tightly, but so tight as to have to resort to any undue violence to extract it. It's hollow,quite light, and of course-- incorrect, as per the diagrams I've seen.
 
Simon--that was a good call regarding the dropouts--I didn't think of that. Unfortunately I didn't get off so easy this time, as mine are well bonded.  I've had to re-epoxy one of my rear dropouts, and have been surprised at how well that's held up.  As far as tightening the pinch bolts go, I feel that I had them pretty tight.  I don't own a torque wrench, so I'm just talking here...but I've kept them as tight as felt comfortable wrenching on an allen head.

Terry--I've taken more pictures, but tried to keep the size conservative.  Let me know if you'd like a closer look and I'll post a larger picture.  As you may have noticed, I'm far from an expert-- but the parts that remain in the frame look pretty official to me.  My guess is that the guy I bought the bike from came across it with that much installed already...and ad-libbed the rest from the K2 parts bins.  He had a lot of extra swing arms and things for sale, and if I'd know back then...

I can't help but think that I need to:  A) get a hold of some new bushings like the ones that were in there, because it did all seem to work well until they saw some wear (and dirt, by the looks of it) 
  or B) acquire all the parts that ought to have been in there in the first place, provided an outlet for said parts still exists.  Is Iron Horse still holding??

  The sealed bearing rig sounds like a fine idea from what I've heard, but likely out of my skill range/tool set, and/or budget

Well....whaddya think, guys?


Again--Many thanks!

-Scott-

Looks like a home made repair using a shaft from a crossink/vector fork.
I suspect the frame inserts where broken at sometime and this has been used as a repair.
I think the play your experiencing is that shaft running through the frame moving within that sleeve.

Simon.

[skoddy]

Well, Simon...I believe you hit the target.  I looked at all the fork diagrams, and for the Vector in particular ( http://www.k2bikes.com/PDF/techLibrary/1997/vector2_assy.pdf ) I see something very similar to the "axle" I've been bouncing around on! 

  I really have no choice but to find this hilarious.   Not only that I've got fork parts for a pivot, but because it's actually worked really well!  I haven't been gentle with this bike, so I'm just shocked that it's all held up so well.   The fella that built this thing is quite the comedian!

  In fact....based on what it's been through so thus far, I'd be perfectly comfortable leaving this 'system' in place if I could get rid of the play.  You know a lot more than myself, and I understand your suspicions regarding the axle itself being the culprit-- but if I had to choose based on what I can see, I'd guess that the white bushings have been worn by the 'axle'.  The insides of the bushings look pretty beat/glazed over, and fell out by themselves--whereas the 'axle' was perfectly happy inside the frame, and wouldn't come out without the persistence of a mallet and dowel.  Do those bushings look at all familiar to you?
 
I suppose I'm just seeing more hope in finding a new bushing that might fit, and pray that works--as I don't have much hope of finding an outlet for the K2 hardware that should really be in there. 

I really appreciate the help

-Scott-

[Old Proflexer]

skoddy,

there's a trick to using the pinch bolts effectively and not overtightening them. 
If over tightened, they can wear on the internal of the pivot. 

with the rear wheel removed and shock not attached to the swing arm, the main pivot needs to be firmly in place with the pinch bolts loose so the swingarm can fall freely if lifted and dropped. 

on standard internals, tighten the pinch bolt that holds the tapped end cup so it is held in place while tightening the crossbolt.  tighten the cross bolt to specs then, loosen the pinch bolt so that pivot side is loose.

slowly start to tighten one of the pinch bolts while lifting and dropping the swing arm.  as soon as the swing arm starts to slow in it's drop, back the pinch bolt out about an 1/8 of a turn so the arm moves freely again.  repeat with the other side - when the arm starts to not drop freely leave it as is and go back to the first pinch bolt and retighten the 1/8th you backed it out.  both bolts should now be adjusted properly to keep the swing arm snug on the axle but not over tightend to cause wear on the plastic parts.  reassemble shock and wheel.  go ride.

i'm still trying to figure out the internals on you bike 

OP

[kiwi]

yes having just pulled my vector to bits the axle looks like the lower axle (pivot for lower link)

[skoddy]

   You're gonna love this one.  I took off what hardware was left, and this was what I found.  The two black flanges each have a hard-plastic liner that the 'axle' rode on.  With each side's respective flange threaded into the frame, there was a gap between their two ends in the center of the pivot-point, so Mr. funnyguy used a poorly cut piece of plastic hose of some kind to make up the difference.  Sure, the bulk of the weight from the axle was riding on the threaded pieces, but still.  Shameful, despite the shocking fact that it worked and held up so well!
   So this is red anodized bit is what's bonded into my frame.  Please tell me at least *this* much is correct!  I'm at a loss as to where to go from here. 
   As per the K2 diagrams I've been looking at, it doesn't look like any other models used the same pivot hardware as the carbon frames.  Am I mistaken?  It's just that as far as finding OE parts to use, I'm going to wager that I'd have a hard time sourcing the parts...but finding another model on craigslist or something is doable.  Someone willing to trade the NR-2 I took off the back, for pivot parts would be a dream  hahaha
  Thanks for listening, guys.  I welcome any options you may think of.

 

[kiwi]

the insert must be stock....the workmanship looks far too good to be the handiwork of the previous guy!Have you actually tried iron horse for the kit?

[shovelon]

Hey, we are getting closer.

The red bonded part looks stock. I am going to venture that the black screw in flanges are too. What is missing is the axle inserts, and all the rest of the bushing and bearing parts. I think Mr FunnyGuy made up his own system.

Scott, I would be willing to disassemble my pivot for a look, and take pics. But I don't know if it will be in the next few days. I will try for this weekend. I may also have a solution for you.

Terry

[shovelon]

These are the parts that came out of my Oz. The gold insert came out of one side, the gold with black threaded ring is the screw in part that you have. It is my assumption that the piece that is in your black threaded ring needs to come out. My frame also has the red color on it' threads like yours. If you had my gold inserts, as well as the bushings, you are complete.

Sorry about the really bad pic.



Terry