does5500 carbon frame weigh more than the 5000?

[chainsaw]

That is the question I should have asked  before I started this  project.

"just how much weight is saved with the carbon frame?"



I just weighed my 4500/5500 bike build up that I have been working on and spending a lot of money on, and I am very very dissapointed to find out that it doesn't weigh any less than my old 5000. And my 4500/5500 has Hollowtech cranks, a much lighter wheel set, lighter saddle and stem, carbon bar. I would have never started this project if I had known I wasn't going to have a lighter bike. Both bikes weigh 33 lbs. I had read about so many 26 lbs carbon fiber bikes on this forum, that I was hoping I could get this large frame build up to 28 lbs. I was prepared to accept that it would be more than 28. I knew I would be dissapointed if it didn't break the 30lb barrier by an ounce. but 33 lbs! I could have gotten a brand new Cannondale Prophet with XTR shifters and tubeless tires/wheels (both bikeshop upgrades) for what I spend  on parts for my buildup ($1800? not including what I paid for the frame.... I wouldn't have had  to spend any time buying and researching parts... and I would have had a  bike that weighed 31 lbs and not 33lbs.

My "new" 4500/5500 LOOKS GREAT... and it is very very unique. But I regret going to all the trouble.

my buildup:

XTR shifters/brake levers
Marzocchi MXR 105s
Stratos Helix Expert
Avid Mechanical disk brakes BB7
XTR front shifter
XT rear shifter (rapid rise)
Easton carbon bar
control tech bar ends
WTB titatanium Shadow V seat
Thomson post
90mm Easton EA50 stem
cane creek headset
sramm 99 chain
XT 960 12 34 cassette
XT Hollowtech 952 crank
Speedplay frogs
ES-71 Bottom Bracket
Ouray Grips
Mavic 819 UST rims, WTB  Weirwolf tires, wheelsmith 14/16 spokes
Hope XC hubs  (total wheeset was under 2000 grams plus tires
True Goo sealant

all total: a few ounces shy of 33 lbs.

for comparison, my 5000 had Rino LItes, IRC Mythos tires, plain old XT cranks, XT hubs, XT shifters, EA70 bar, bar ends, Stratos Expert, Marzocchi MX 85mm, Specialized sport BodyGeometry seat , titec post, XT derailleurs, Titec stem, frog pedals, and much lighter XT V brakes.

So I ask:
does the 5500 carbon frame weigh MORE than the 5000 frame?

here are the photos of the bike. It does look great. and Looks are important to me. But that Red Prophet looked great too.

http://mannphoto.com/k2

[Simon]

The carbon frame should be lighter than the 5000
not by much though,the frame and s/arm weighs in
at around 5lbs without the shock,
I'd say your extra bulk is down to your choice of
Fork and shock,
I'm not familiar with all the components your using,
are the Avid mechanical calipers heavy
all the other components are quality light weight units and I'd expect it to weigh in well below 28lbs,
It does look great though,try riding before judging it
,it may ride alot lighter than the scales indicate.
Simon.

[Carbon_Angus]

Simon is real close regarding the weight of the frame/swing - less shock.

How many #'s is your fork Some of us use a lighter more xc style. that might be 2#'s plus right there. Don't know if 2000 grams for a wheelset/tires is light or not, sorry on that one.

That is one purdy lookin' bike. I am more fond of a riser bar, asthetically, too.

Nice pics, too!!  [smiley=laughing.gif] I like your "windows" essay

[smiley=beer.gif]

[bmwcarver]

Awesome looking ride! [smiley=nod.gif]  Fork, shock, and wheels are probably a bit heavier than our xc counterparts.  Discs are great, but the hubs for them are a bit heavier.  The biggest question I have, and could add nearly 1 to 2 pounds overall, True Goo Sealant?  Is that a necessity for going UST, or is it just extra flat protection like Slime?  If it is just extra protection, weigh the bike sans the sealant, then decide if the extra weight of the sealant is worth it.  I use Panaracer Flat Away's  (Kevlar cloth adhesive tape that goes between tire and tube) for flat protection and have faired quite well even with all the goatheads here in Kansas.  



I am running a K2 900 frame with carbon swingarm, carbon crosslink, and almost all factory components from the 957 and weigh in at 25lb without my tool pouch.  Biggest weight savers I added to still end up at the 25lb was bebop stainless pedals, Ti bottom bracket, ti seatpost.  



Wish I could fit the Carbon frame, I would've gone that way instead of the K2900 aluminum. [smiley=depressed.gif]

[junkster]

Hi all,
       Great looking bike mate. Would tend to agree it isn't the frame that is at fault. Before my fork upgrade (to carbons), the new front/rear tyre and tubes, and my new Truvativ Wavo alloy stem, my 5000 felt like it weighed a ton. I still thought in its new state my 5000, with all its mods and hydraulic disc brakes, was gonna be a lot heavier, but it weighs in at around 28lbs. Woohoo!!

For anyone who is remotely interested:

• 
  

The Frame: 18" 5000 with the carbon swing arm.

• 
  

Tyres/tubes: front and rear WTB Mutano raptor 2.4s and specialized tubes.

• 
  

Cranks, pedals, BB, chain: Shimano Mega9 M440 chainset on a UN72 BB with Oddessy beartrap style alloy pedals, shimano mega9 chain(?)

• 
  

The front:
Girvin standard length carbons with Noleen N2 shock and NR-225-L coil spring, a fibreglass moulded wraparound jacket fixing the modded alloy front discmount to the leg, a 180mm steel rotor and Magura Julie 2004 hydraulic caliper. A Zac2000 alloy dischub wheel and TranzX skewer, Club Roost alloy downhill handlebars, club roost grips, composite Julie 2004 hydraulic brake levers, Deore 27gear RF shifters, and a Truvativ Wavo stem, Diacompe Aheadset cups, bearings, etc.

• 
  

The rear:
DT swiss rear dischub wheel and DT swiss spokes, TranzX skewer, Shimano 2003 LX rear 9speed cassette,
modded alloy discmount (bolted & bonded with a mixture of steel putty/plastic padding liquid steel epoxy), Magura julie 2004 hydraulic disc caliper and 160mm steel wavy rotor, 2004 Deore rear mech.

• 
  

The middle:
rear shock: 2002/3(?) Stratos Air/oil XC pro shock with 4 modded alloy plates bolted on so it would fit and raise the height of the back.
Deore 2004 front mech.
Specialized BG saddle and a 350mm alloy rail seatpost and specialized alloy seatclamp.

wake up people!  [smiley=yawn.gif]

My flatmates stock full sus 2003 Specialized Epic comp with Fox float forks, rear linkage with a brain shock and a added Hope M4 front hydraulic disc (160mm) weighs in at 25/26lbs so was pleasantly surprised considering the extra weight for the dual discbrakes and metal involved in the mods!  [smiley=beer.gif]

Will be looking for a lighter BB, cranks, rear mech and poss rear wheel, but for now will settle for loosing weight on my own frame! (lost 2 stone already!!)  [smiley=nod.gif] [smiley=beer.gif]

cheers,

Dan  [smiley=beer.gif]

[junkster]

Oh yeah, one thing - remove all the unused brake bosses/pivots/mounts (whatever ya wanna call them). Each one feels quite weighty on yer hand when you do and no sense carrying that extra weight. I covered the holes over with cut out stickers and then painted them black then sprayed them with metal flake clear spray paint/ennamel to make them hard and waterproof - worked a treat! (incidentally I used this on the carbon swingarm and forks - gives a great shine and added scuff protection).

cheers,

Dan

UPDATE: Just seen your earlier posting on the subject of removing the brake bosses. Have you already done this then?

[shovelon]

Hi chainsaw.

Your buildup is sweet indeed. I have seen carbon frameset weights listed at 6.7 lbs. including the noleen shock. Your stratos helix shock is about 1/4 lb heavier as it has more travel, about 2 lbs maybe. But nice travel. My  airshock is one third that weight, for camparison.

I think your fork is heavier than mine by a lb.or so. I have a Psylo listed at 4.1 lb. I have recently brought my Oz down to 26 bones. Not without dineros mind you.

I am running an XTR cassette on the rear. I remember quite a diffrerence in weight from the XT.

So I can target about 2 lbs difference from my Oz, but I think the real deal is in your wheelset and tires,  and sealant. From what you are saying, your wheelset is 2000 grams not including tires. Those tires you are running are weighty.

I have that same seat and love it.

Try going to www.weightweenies.com for some very accurate listings.

You have crossed over to the darkside me amigo.

Terry

[Dennis]

Hi Chainsaw,

I agree with most of the other posts on your (bike) weight issue. The fork and shock you are using are pretty heavy, and the tire sealant is heavy also. Is it absolutely necessary for you? The deal is that not only is tire sealant heavy, but is in precisely the place where you do not want weight. rotating weight is bad, and the farther from the center of rotation (the hub axle) the worse it is. It has to do with moment of inertia. anyway, I would recommend not running the sealant, and air shocks front and rear. not that you made poor choices. You picked quality components, just not the lightest. also, a riser bar would be about the same weight as a flat bar, and you could lose the bar ends.

also, remember when comparing the weight of your bike to the prophet's that published weights are usually without pedals and always without tire sealant. plus, they probably put little skinny lightweight tires on them when they weigh them. so, be wary of published weights. as stated above, weight weenies.com will give you a more accurate picture of weight.

btw, your bike looks awesome and should ride awesome. your suspension should work fabulously well. plus, you have a unique ride, not something that everyone has. the prophet is a nice bike, but not a really cool, almost one of a kind K2 carbon. that counts for alot, doesn't it? it does to me.

now, don't get down, get out and ride the thing. that's what it was made for.

[smiley=groucho.gif]

[Simon]

Just another point,
your aiming for around 28lbs
if you minus the frame weight from your build (5lbs)
you end up at 28lbs,your component choice totals 28lbs,if you built up the cannondale with these components you would still be looking at a bike weighing around 33lbs,
Still go with fork and shock choice as your main problem,but also agree that your rim choice etc componds your problem,however there mighty excellent hubs and light for a disc hub(I always use them),
my son's Oz is built up on a very tight budget and comes in at an easy 26lbs,the main difference
being the fork/shock choice and using hope mini hydro disc's.
Simon.  

[Sprucey]

There is more to "weight" than just weight!

A good, heavier bike with well set up suspension, and a light weight wheel package will feel a lot lighter than a badly set up bike that is actually lighter.

The biggest thing you can do is save weight in the wheels and tyres - you can still keep it free-ride strong but it will make the bike easier to accelerate and help on the climbs.

When I replaced my stock rear Nr2 with the 5th Element coil it added quite a lot of weight to the bike. The "ride" however has been improved immeasurably - more travel and great "dig in" on the climbs - the bike feels 10 pounds lighter and rides much better than my (much lighter) razorback!

Sprucey

[Colin]

A couple of points:
Can't find the original article, but I remember one published about the technical process of building the 4500/5500 frames and Pro~Flex said that it was 50% stronger than the Aluminium frame bikes –   But………. only 10% Lighter !
10% lighter on a 5lb frame isn’t much of a saving………

Secondly, here’s a quote from:
Mountain Bike Action / July 1998 p.147)
Ralph Hines Sheds Some Light: K2 Bike's Pro Racer
•      MBA: How light were your '97 pro team bikes, and how will the new models compare?
•      Ralph: The team bikes were built on the production "5000" frame.  With the team-spec'd components, they weighed 23 pounds.  The new designs weigh 22 pounds for the racing model and 23 for the 5000-based design.  That's a big improvement, considering last year's lightest model, the carbon fiber 4500, weighed 26 pounds.

(And I bet Money was no object for them!)

I think the bottom line to building a light bike is to not put anything unnecessary on it……..expensive components often only save you a small percentage, but one unnecessary item is all excess weight!

Nice looking 5500 though!

[chainsaw]

thanks for all the kind words and support.

my priorities in building this bike and choosing to build up this particular bike:
1. performance
2. durability ( I weigh 210 lbs)
3. light weight
4. price  (putting price last might not be accurate, not sure)
5. looks
6. uniqueness

I consulted Weightweenies.com and MTBR.com before buying any components.

1. I chose the Marzocchi MXR because it weighed 4.1 lbs, and the lightest forks still weighed 3lbs. I was willing to "take" one lb there for two reasons: price and durability. I had an old MXR I traded in that was broken. got a $100 credit when sending it back to Marzocchi (I had "garaged" it). so got it for $240. It IS a XC fork

2. I  chose the Stratos Helix Pro a couple of years ago because a: it fit, and b: has lot of travel, and c: I thought the  coil would be more durable than air. I haven't had ANY problems with it. I took it off of my 5000. I noticed at weightweenies that it  weighs 480 grams. the lightest listed were 200grams... but most were only about a half lb. lighter than the Helix pro.

3. the wheel set was under 2000 grams. the lightest wheelsets the CrossMax wheelsets were almost 1600 grams and they only had 28 spokes. I was wary of their durability and price. and remember...only a 400 gram difference. My Rhino LIte XT Parallel wheeset on my 5000 weighs about 3000 grams. so I thought saving 1000 grams was great.

4. the tires were only 725 grams each.... an average weight for 2.1 UST tires. they weigh more than the Python LIghts of course, but only a 100 grams more each, and I wanted durable tires with lots of grip

5. I am running the True Goo, because I hate getting flats and we have lots of thorns here in Texas. I might have a little too much in there. I can't imagine not running a sealant.

6. I was surprised at how much the Avid mech BB7 calipers weighed. but when checking weightweenies... the Avids I bought were right on Par in the weight dept with just about every brake listed on weight weenies except those Formulas that Simon runs, but when I read the MTBR.COM reviews, I was scared away from them. Also, have owned many vehicles, including english sports cars, and doing most of the brake work myself, I am weary of dealing with hydraulic problems. So I went mechanical for a: durability and simplicity of design, b: price, c: I am running the Avid Full Metal Jacket brake lines that weigh less than traditional hose, but have less friction and compression, supposedly approaching the feel of hydros.

7. I have GOT to have my bar ends. we have a lot of very tight trails that run through trees. I use them for protection more than anything.


TOTALLING IT ALL UP:

I was trying to make a bike like the ones I have seen listed on this site that were 26lbs, but then adding a couple of lbs for more durablility

I knew I was gaining one LB for my fork choice
I knew I was gaining one LB for the Avid Mechs instead of Formula B4s
I knew I was gaining 1/2 lbs for the Helix pro.
I knew I was gaining .9 Lb for going with the wheelset I chose, again for durability
I have to have a sealant, I always ran slime tubes on my 5000
add .3 lbs for my bar ends

so that adds up to 3.7 lbs I was will to "pay" for durability, lets round it off to 4 lbs including my sealant (those 26 lb 5500C bikes don't run sealant?)

so lets add my 4lbs of extra durability to the 26lb bikes that inspired me... and that brings me to 30 lbs and not 3 lbs. I still don't know where the other 3 lbs are coming from when comparing my bike to those 26lb carbon K2s. Now I see that it was unreasonable of me to hope for 28lbs. But I still don't think it was unreasonable of me to expect 30lbs.

I lost weight at a couple of places:
my saddle is 180 grams.

that Thomson seatpost is not very heavy

I don't have a seatbag or even a bottle cage on it.

I am still disappointed that I didn't break 30 lbs. by one ounce. And I am VERY dissapointed that it isn't appreciably lighter than my old 5000. sure the Carbon frame has disk brakes, but it also has lighter wheelset by 2 lbs, lighter crank, lighter bar, lighter seat and post.

I have another question: why did they produce these carbon bike frame... not because they were lighter, but because they were stronger? I have  been riding my 5000 for 5 years. 90 rides a year. all cross country. and I like to take little jumps. And there is nothing wrong  with the frame.


I need to be happy that I have a unique, cool looking, durable bike that should perform great. But I have to admit, I am thinking of selling it. I would if I thought I could get back what I paid  for it. I will probably keep it after I get used to the dissapointment. I need to realize that I GOT the durable, high performance, cool looking, unique bike... just not a lighter bike.


I was wrong that it cost me $1800 in parts. I spent $1404 in parts plus $200 for the frame. So it is cheaper than that Prophet by $250.

sorry for such a long post. but this required my being thorough.

[shovelon]

Hi chainsaw,



Your Helix shock is listed in weightweenies without spring. Add another lb. for that.



My wtb shadow v stealth saddle was advertised at 185 grams also but in reality weighed 200 grams. Most everything comes in alittle heavier. I bought myself a gram counter to verify purchases.



My 4000 frame with carbon swingarm weighs 7.5 lbs. but I confess does feel stiffer. One thing with my carbon frame is that it soaks up everything it hits.



I still think you have one bombproof bike there. A little tweeking here and there and you can't go wrong. And more mixing and matching and you will have a bike better than the Prophet could ever be. I think the prophet is at the top of it's game. Keep at it!



For reference, Jinder just helped me get a 957(thank's Jinder). I hope to push that guy down to 22lbs. someday. I may borrow parts off the Oz to accomplish as I score parts off Ebay.



Terry

[Matno]

That's a beautiful build. Love the all "dark" look. The first thing I would do if I were you is to check my scale... Seriously. My two 5000s are built similarly enough to yours to wonder where in the heck you could possibly have 4-6 lbs more than mine! My large 5000 was just BARELY over 27lbs when I had XT discs and cheapo Ritchey wheels (with XT rear hub). When I upgraded to Avid mechanicals, I was sad to find out that my new weight was just under 29lbs! Grrrr. Especially frustrating since I thought I was losing a lot of weight by going with $500 Bontrager Race disc modified wheels. (The wheels turned out to be HEAVIER than my $140 Ritcheys - I could easily tell the difference by holding them in my hands!) I knew the Avids would be heavier than V's, but that was a lot more than I expected. My setup is not quite as fancy as yours, but similar: Monkey lite bar, LX hollowtech cranks, XT shifters/XTR derailleur, Speed V saddle (not the standard heavy one, but some lighter OEM version), Manitou X-vert fork (~4lbs), Stratos Helix Pro (heavier than the Expert, I believe), Panaracer Fire XC Pro tires, etc.  

My wife's bike, which is a medium 5000, has essentially the same components except: heavier Maniac bars, Astro 5 rear air shock, Mavic Crosslink wheels, Avid ArchRival rim brakes, Specialized tires (pretty big). It weighs almost exactly 27lbs - 2lbs less than mine.

For comparison, my bro-in-law just bought a new $3600 Prophet last week. It has Mavic CrossMax wheels (awesome), XTR cranks, Avid Juicy brakes, FSA carbon bar, SRAM triggers/drivetrain, Hutchinson Scorpion tubeless tires, etc. Basically very high end. A big upgrade from his 2004 Jekyll 1000, which had the 819 rims, XT everything, and weighed about 28lbs. Weight: ~27lbs. (I must say I'm very jealous. The ride quality is incredible).

Bottom line: You have a respectable build, but I have a REALLY hard time figuring out where the extra poundage is coming from. At least I can't figure out where you'd get enough to weigh 33lbs. Must be the bar ends...

[GaryF52]

Chainsaw,

I too am baffled by the low weights people report on their Evo & Carbon bikes.  My 5000, with v'brakes and a Stratos shock, weighs about 31 lbs.  I recently got my Disco Monkey down to about 32 lbs when I replaced my fork and disc brakes with lighter components.  How some people are getting their bikes way below 30 lbs is amazing to me.

Even my Jamis Dakar weighs in at about 27 lbs and it has a very light component spec, but it's frame & shock alone is about 2 lbs lighter then my Evo's!

Take that 5500 out for some hard riding and enjoy it!  I'm sure with those big tires and high quality suspension and drivetrain that that thing is going to give you a plush ride and great handling.