Author Topic: What Model is This? (Read 28258 times)

w2zero · « **Reply #45 on:** September 19, 2013, 10:46:27 am »

Death trap! Snort, guffaw!

Been riding my death trap since 1995. I have crashed and burned many times on this and other mountain bikes and a lot of road bikes. Entirely due to my enthusiasm, not any of the bikes. There was talk about the "backwards fork" but that is an illusion since the wheel position is the same as a telescopic fork. The path of the axle in compression isn't a lot different than the path of telescoping forks deflecting back in the day. Early on there was a problem with the pinning of the fork crown to the steer tube that was resolved after I wasted two of them on stairs and talked to some reps. have had no problems that could be blamed on the design since. I have changed the riding stance from the road bike crouch to a more upright one with different components for more comfort in my advanced years. Anyone, including me, going otb was primarily from not powering through an obstacle.

Spokes · « **Reply #46 on:** September 19, 2013, 03:43:24 pm »

Oh well that was always going to happen I suppose, no surprise there. If you've ridden Proflexs since new they don't feel old or wrong in any way, but they are old bikes. Things have moved on in terms of geometry and suspension and compared to modern bikes they're always going to feel a lot more committed. You pays your money you makes your choice as they say.
I did my 16 mile loop this morning which takes in all surfaces. Road, gravel, forestry track, mud etc and loved it. It rained hard for the last 10 mile but my 857 handled brilliantly. Fast and light. But that's the difference. I've been riding only proflexs since '97 and so they feel right to me. I never experience any of the bad traits other people talk about because my riding style has developed with the bike and the handling is second nature to me. But everyone is different, it's all good.
Enjoy your new toy

Chris

petes97857 · « **Reply #47 on:** September 20, 2013, 02:03:42 am »

Hi folks

Death Trap
Sounds more like operator error to me

Weight transfer is the issue here older 90's mountain bikes were all about climbing whilst on the bike weight forward to keep front wheel on the trail rider forward.

More modern MTBikes are set up for a more downhill style with the riders weight to the rear as the weight will transfer when you brake that's why bigger better brakes are on the front.
Watch out wilst TRYING to pedal uphill whilst sitting on downhill bikes as you will land on your ass.

It's a case of different tools for different jobs

Bet the DEATH TRAP accusers have never used a cyclocross bike.

Pete

w2zero · « **Reply #48 on:** September 20, 2013, 11:57:02 am »

Indeed, cyclocross rocks. I rod a bit of that during the NW winters when the urge to get muddy was strong. Also rode trails on a fixed gear road bike and smoked the guys on mtb's on smooth tracks between the twisties.

beeeerock · « **Reply #49 on:** September 20, 2013, 12:24:25 pm »

Well, I'd be reluctant to suggest Operator Error to either of these guys... as I said, the first was a ProFlex factory rider on the race circuit back in the day. He sang the bike's praises too, but made it clear that the newer designs brought improvements in many areas. The other guy has been around long enough to know as well. He's been riding his $6k Nomad for some years, and used to take it apart and hide the pieces around his house if he left for the weekend. He invested more in his bike than his car... now that's a bicycle love affair...

Don't get me wrong, I like the bike and I'll likely keep it AND ride it until someone offers a price I simply can't refuse (doubtful that will happen!). While I haven't been riding much in the last few years, I was keen and eager in the days before ProFlex. My first ride (still have it, looking stock!) was this one: http://forums.mtbr.com/vintage-retro-classic/1988-rocky-mountain-hammer-719531.html (not my thread, just the same model and year). I bought it new and rode the snot out of it. Then I added Rock Shox and rode it some more. If you can ride something like that and not be left in the dust, you might have a reasonable skill level, so I'm not a newbie, just rusty and old.

When I get on the 857, the first thing I notice is I feel like I'm another two feet higher from the ground than I'm used to. My weight is quite far forward as has been noted (although the Rocky has me fairly forward too). Wheel base feels really short. I can turn on a dime. Climbing is pretty solid and the front wheel stays down. Don't have the ratios to climb trees, but that's not the fault of the bike. I power out on the really steep stuff before the wheel gets uncontrollably loose. What makes me nervous is downhill that isn't just easy cruising. Hard braking sets the front down further than I'm comfortable with, even with the Z1's cranked pretty tight (my questions here have been suspension related, trying to dial in something that doesn't scare me). The ride height and short wheelbase makes it more noticeable! And hitting a boggy spot at speed on a downhill, or a deep short dip means I'd better be back from my seat or I'm going over the bars. I've so far learned to anticipate this behavior, but it doesn't mean I consider it a 'feature' if you know what I mean...

I'm tall, with long legs, so perhaps my body proportions aren't optimum for this bike.

The new one has a longer wheelbase by quite a bit. Different fork angle. Certainly more brakes with the disks than I've ever had before. Lower ratios for the climbs. I thought I'd be lifting the front end, but in fact I can go up steeper loose pitches better than with the 857. And that's without using the 'Talus' setting or whatever they have it labeled... it drops the front end an inch or so on the fly, for better climbing - or so goes the hype. I have yet to feel like I'm in danger of going over the bars and in general feel more under control going faster under tougher conditions. I wouldn't have expected this much of a difference, but it's real. And the difference SHOULD exist! No matter how much you like your <insert car model here> from that era, it won't stack up to the equivalent today and absolutely shouldn't be able to. Those differences are why I like my old Alfa Spider - the steering is heavy, it doesn't really perform that well... but it's fun and turns heads! Technology carries us forward and I don't think there's any harm in admitting it.

You won't find me on a cyclocross bike, but then, everyone finds their own niche.

w2zero · « **Reply #50 on:** September 20, 2013, 08:40:13 pm »

You'd be amazed at what a skinny tire bike will do in the sloppy stuff riding 'cross. Once upon a time I rode track and was a cat 3 roadie before getting the mtb bug. Early mtb with no suspension at the ski resorts was very hairy to be sure and was asked to leave for my exuberant pass through multiple flights of stairs. I really really like stairs. Some of our urban rides involved no dirt at all but left a trail of blood and alloy that is still the stuff of legend. I just adapt to whatever I'm riding.

Alfa? Thrashed my 76 GTV for years and still remember that little screamer at full song. The present automotive dinosaur is a 64 Fairlane with some upgrades to stop it because of the upgrades to make it go.

Spokes · « **Reply #51 on:** September 21, 2013, 02:33:30 am »

No one will argue that things haven't progressed since the birth of Proflex, that's plain obvious. Proflex were there at the beginning of full suspension and the fact that they still cut it today is testament to how good they were when first designed. You might not connect with the riding position and thats fine but plenty of others do.

The 'Death Trap' comment is plain stupid. Your personal 857 might well be a death trap and just because you cant get on with it doesn't means all Proflexs are the same. I ride all year round in all weather conditions and mostly proper off road and never feel I'm riding a death trap. Crazy. Taking a 16 year old bike with a worn out shock into a modern bike shop and asking their opinion is bound to get a negative response. What were you expecting? At my LBS they called the lads in to have a look at the quality of my bike as it always in top condition. A death trap certainly not.

Proflexs have a committed riding position because of the era they came from and the fact they were designed as cross country race bikes. That need a very physical riding style and you have to move around on the bike. These are retro bikes that in the right hands still kick ass today. You either get it or you don't.

Enjoy your new ride, because that's what it's all about - enjoyment -
Sell your Proflex and except that it wasn't for you. But just because you didn't get on with it doesn't make All Proflexs death traps.

Chris

purple gerbil · « **Reply #52 on:** September 21, 2013, 05:20:39 am »

IMHO pro-flex's are a love affair,you either love em or you hate em. Some of us have had them from new & in those days they was the bo##ox and we don't see the need to spend thousands on a new steed. My friend has a Carbon cube which he broke after 3 weeks to me that's a death trap costing £2700. Bitd I broke the shock mount off my 552,took it back to the shop to be faced with jez Avery grinning from ear to ear saying I ain't broke one there yet only to show me his pro-flex with a sheared head tube,yet i still ride a pf.As for geometry the pf is a xc bike,short for the twisty stuff,short rear for climbing and low slung for fast firetrail stuff,what racing was all about bitd.now days people rely on the bike to much to get them through a ride. How many of us pf riders can catch people on these new machines? IMHO i would keep the pf & get some nice cheapish fox or rock shox and use it for winter rides and in general to improve yourself as a rider, so appreciate it for what it is,you would never take a Ferrari rallying would you. Enjoy the giant but remember that price tag made you faster downhill

purple gerbil · « **Reply #53 on:** September 21, 2013, 05:29:06 am »

As for LBS people they do what's called a shop ride where you pick the most expensive bike and go for a ride to show off,I don't call that racing. Been on a few.

w2zero · « **Reply #54 on:** September 21, 2013, 03:53:08 pm »

During my off seasons in sheetmetal work or on strike years ago, I would work in a buddy's bike shop selling and repairing. It was like getting paid (very little) for nothing since it was just passing time for me. I was the best mechanic and second best salesman in the shop. Used the free money to buy a Bianchi Superleggera and rode the wheels off that racing then traded the frame to a buddy for some serious swag. I then bought a Bianchi 748 frame and fork with a huge dent in the top tube from the shop owner for 17 bucks. The 748 was a Belgian team bike and had a story. It was owned by the femme half of a les pair who apparently got her bf po'd at the bar across the street from the bike shop. She expressed her profound sorrow to her sweetie and I sold them a high end Bertin frame and fork then put her gruppo on it. That became my road race bike which was named by the guys on our team "Stronzo" because I had a bad habit of showing up late for races and starting in a later classification and then finishing in my own classification. I would place well in my class which really displeased my team mates since I would have pushed the team standings much higher had I started with them.... Oops! Stronzo is Ital for "A-hole" .... Ahh, the past was great when I had the lungs before they went south. Now for the point after my serious digression; My experience with racer/mechanics is this: They only worked in the shop because it was basically a football scholarship where they get paid because they can win races. In all five shops I worked or managed, they were the worst mechanics and only somewhat better at sales. There were a few exceptions to that but very few. Their primary function was to work off the spendy parts and bikes they desired or destroyed.

Did I have a point there somewhere? I'm old, don't remember..... Hey, you kids get offa my lawn!!!

Spokes · « **Reply #55 on:** September 22, 2013, 01:44:22 am »

Chris

w2zero · « **Reply #56 on:** September 22, 2013, 06:41:39 am »

The girls were apologetic to each other and us and the fact that the less girly of them tried to wrap it around a handrail wasn't lost on anyone. I brazed a nail to the tube in the middle of the dent and pulled 99% of it out while straightening the top tube. You can't find the damage in the crappy repaint and it rides straight. This was the best bike shop in town and the owner, as well as some of the racer/mechanics made their living assembling department store bikes. That sums up their mechanical abilities, they were really fast at assembling heavy junk bikes. Myself and a few other guys did all the technical builds, wheels, etc. Plus one of them was a frame builder too.

Stimpy sez Ren developed huge pectorals lifting Huffys and Murrays

beeeerock · « **Reply #57 on:** September 23, 2013, 01:56:33 pm »

Quote from: w2zero on September 20, 2013, 08:40:13 pm

Alfa? Thrashed my 76 GTV for years and still remember that little screamer at full song. The present automotive dinosaur is a 64 Fairlane with some upgrades to stop it because of the upgrades to make it go.

I'd happily adopt a GTV if someone dropped it at my door in a basket and blanket, rang the bell and ran off!

A friend of mine in university had one, although I think it might have been a GTV6, and I always liked the wedgy shape that was really ahead of its time. Older Alfa's have always had a GREAT exhaust note. Mine is a '90 with fuel injection and does not sound like the older ones, even though the engine and car is essentially the same as it was 20 years earlier. I have to wonder if the injection has done it, or if the tuning is that much different... or what. The 'Alfa-song' was music to my ears back in the 70's...

Glad you put some money into stopping the Ford! Plenty of weight there and I don't recall them stopping overly well even without the go-fast upgrades!

Typical of that era for sure!

Quote from: Spokes on September 21, 2013, 02:33:30 am

The 'Death Trap' comment is plain stupid. Your personal 857 might well be a death trap and just because you cant get on with it doesn't means all Proflexs are the same. I ride all year round in all weather conditions and mostly proper off road and never feel I'm riding a death trap. Crazy. Taking a 16 year old bike with a worn out shock into a modern bike shop and asking their opinion is bound to get a negative response. What were you expecting? At my LBS they called the lads in to have a look at the quality of my bike as it always in top condition. A death trap certainly not.

Proflexs have a committed riding position because of the era they came from and the fact they were designed as cross country race bikes. That need a very physical riding style and you have to move around on the bike. These are retro bikes that in the right hands still kick ass today. You either get it or you don't.

Enjoy your new ride, because that's what it's all about - enjoyment -
Sell your Proflex and except that it wasn't for you. But just because you didn't get on with it doesn't make All Proflexs death traps.

Let me just reiterate that I didn't call it a Death Trap myself... and that the ex-racer admired the excellent condition and waxed poetic about the bike in addition to pointing out what he felt were shortcomings compared to CURRENT models. Remember the Lancia Delta Group B rally car? An amazing piece of technology and a screamer in the right hands. Some called it a death trap too and it contributed to the demise of Group B... not the best analogy I must admit, but the point I'm trying to make is there will always be advantages to one design over another, and disadvantages too. If there was a perfect formula, we'd all be riding the BikeCo Perfect 26/27.5/29 AutoDiameterAdjust Dual Clutch Predictive Shift DSG... LOL... And life would be pretty damn boring!

At around 1:44 in this clip:


Mountain Biking Whistler, Kamloops, Sun Peak, Silverstar, Canada 2012

you will see a tricky piece that I would have tried on the Rocky BITD. Probably would have survived it too. Approaching this sort of thing on the 857 puckers my sphincter. If I grew up on it like I did on the Rocky, maybe it wouldn't. If I was to drop the seat right down, maybe it wouldn't. But if I was confronted with this on a typical ride today and no quick release seat, I'd find another way down. As you said, "either you get it or you don't". I'm not afraid to say that in this case "I don't"!

The rest of the ride, I have no complaints... but I can't physically get back far enough to be OK with a bit of trail like this, knowing I'm expected at work on Monday!

I actually did note the features I liked about the 857 in an earlier post above too... I'm not thumbing my nose at the 857 or ProFlex - it was my personal observations of strengths and weaknesses.

beeeerock · « **Reply #58 on:** September 23, 2013, 01:57:07 pm »

Quote from: purple gerbil on September 21, 2013, 05:20:39 am

How many of us pf riders can catch people on these new machines? IMHO i would keep the pf & get some nice cheapish fox or rock shox and use it for winter rides and in general to improve yourself as a rider, so appreciate it for what it is,you would never take a Ferrari rallying would you. Enjoy the giant but remember that price tag made you faster downhill

At this point in my life, I don't think I'd keep up with the younger crowd and their new machines if I was on a KTM... If someone doesn't roll over the top of me I'm generally pretty happy...

I'm still trying to dial in the right suspension settings for me on the 857. As I alluded to above, there are places where I will still enjoy riding it and will likely continue to ride it. I don't take my Alfa on the four lane divided highways because that's not what makes it fun... similarly I won't load up the 857 for a destination that isn't going to help make me enjoy my day.

While looking for an example of the kind of slope I mentioned above, I came across this video clip which covers many of the trails I rode and now ride again, regularly. It doesn't show any of the tricky stuff you sometimes need to get by to reach another trail, but is representational of the general terrain...

Show and Tell!

http://youtu.be/gsoMT9HUpPg

purple gerbil · « **Reply #59 on:** September 23, 2013, 04:19:36 pm »

I drive a Alfa 156 20v jtd veloce......grin factor when boy racers see its a diesel

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Author Topic: What Model is This? (Read 28258 times)