Author Topic: Disco monkey compares to ? (Read 5352 times)

keen · « **on:** June 13, 2003, 04:02:04 pm »

I have an 01' Way Big disco Monkey. Psylo XC fork, Stratos Pro rear shock. I ride agressive XC. Everytime I hit the local trails I find that about 80% of the bikes run some sort of multi-link/ 4 link rear suspension. A few Santa Cruz bullits but they have 5th element shocks. Am I missing out running a single pivot? I have only owned/ ridden 2 full supension bikes - 97' Beast and the Monkey. Specialized Enduro's seem interesting but I haven't had any real experience, or what else? Any opinions?

jedoaks · « **Reply #1 on:** June 13, 2003, 04:51:31 pm »

Sounds like you have a nice setup. You know, you always want what you don't have. Plus, those bikes are 3 or 4 grand .The rear suspension technology is what has changed . Stable platform definitely makes a difference, but not needed to have a good time. It all amounts to less bob. I wouldn't worry about it unless you're ready for a new bike. Rich

pedro · « **Reply #2 on:** June 14, 2003, 12:32:05 pm »

See if your friends will let you try their 4 bar linkage set ups, or test them. I have tested a Trek Liquid, and I don't think it rides any better than my evo.

jimbo · « **Reply #3 on:** June 14, 2003, 12:46:17 pm »

I think the Evo is the best bang for the buck for a heavy-duty trail bike. The only weakness I have found is the tire clearance on the swingarm. I have put 2.3s on the back, but mud clearance really suck when things get sticky. I've been running 2.1s in case of those muddy days.

Scott · « **Reply #4 on:** June 15, 2003, 02:41:58 am »

I have an Oz. This year chose to ride a XC series. Many 4 bars/platform shock bikes but the most demanding, technical course of the year gave me the best race results by far on the simple single pivot. Sound's though you're looking for efficiency so consider the new 5th element air shock if that's the goal. Imho our single pivot delivers a good overall ride and misses only on the boring portions off road such as smooth gradual ascents that remind me of road riding.

Old Proflexer · « **Reply #5 on:** June 16, 2003, 12:38:22 am »

most rear suspension changes (notice i didn't say improvements) are in the order of increased travel and smoothness of ride especially initial travel movemement - small bump absorbtion. on a mono pivot such as ours, the 'bumps' are transmitted in the direction of the seat post and the multi linkage setups, 4 bar, fsr etc., cut the shock to the frame down substantially. but in doing so they are much more prone to 'pedal bob' etc. the newer shocks are designed to reduce or counter the problems with the more recent geometry designs, and can make substantial improvements in the mono pivot design as well.

moving to a new shock such as the 5th or fox will help with bob and shock on the monopivot over the supplied noleen.

a lot of the bike is in the fork, money is well spent there. moving to a new shock in the rear will make a good deal of difference and if you could 'try one out' on your frame, i'm sure you'd agree.

i don't lust over other bikes and their new fangled setups. i usually see it the other way around with many guys asking about my 5 year old, mono pivot rig.

most importantly and something to always keep in mind,
i'd rather be driving a supercharged 67 VW bug than a new Corvette with a poorly tuned engine.

OP

Tom_A. · « **Reply #6 on:** June 16, 2003, 05:31:11 am »

One more thing to observe:

Many "so-called" 4-link suspensions are actually monopivot swingarms with an overly complicated shock actuation mechanism. The Specialized FSR is the most notable of these.

How do you identify a "pseudo 4-link"? Simple. If there is no pivot between the "main pivot" (i.e. the one nearest the BB) and the rear dropout, then the suspension is actually a monopivot type design. True 4-links have a pivot (sometimes called a "horst link") between the pivot at the BB and the dropout.

Think of it this way. If you take all the links off of the bike except the link connecting the main pivot to the dropout, the suspension travel will be defined by the arc swept out by that link. This is exactly the same as the swingarm on a monopivot design. On pseudo-4 link bikes, the extra links are just fancy ways of actuating the shock (however, they may add modifications to the spring rate - i.e. rising/falling rate - at the expense of extra pivots). On an EVO style frame, the shock is actuated directly by the link.

Thunderchild · « **Reply #7 on:** June 16, 2003, 07:10:26 am »

Don't forget maintenance. I have ridden a ProFlex 5000 for four years(All year, snow, mud, blah blah) with very minimal maintenance. It is going to take a break as my Oz is a day away from being completed.

Matno · « **Reply #8 on:** June 17, 2003, 10:43:53 am »

Quote

Many "so-called" 4-link suspensions are actually monopivot swingarms with an overly complicated shock actuation mechanism. The Specialized FSR is the most notable of these.

Actually, the Specialized is THE real 4-bar linkage. They own the patent now and other companies pay them to use it (e.g. Giant and Intense). There is most certainly a pivot between the BB and the hub on the Specialized bikes.

Kona and Diamondback come to mind as good examples of the pseudo 4-bar linkage. The K2 Tirade is also a good example.

Tom_A. · « **Reply #9 on:** June 17, 2003, 12:57:16 pm »

I wrote:

"Many "so-called" 4-link suspensions are actually monopivot swingarms with an overly complicated shock actuation mechanism. The Specialized FSR is the most notable of these."

Matno, you are correct....That last sentence was meant to be at the end of the next paragraph and should have read:

"How do you identify a "pseudo 4-link"? Simple. If there is no pivot between the "main pivot" (i.e. the one nearest the BB) and the rear dropout, then the suspension is actually a monopivot type design. True 4-links have a pivot (sometimes called a "horst link") between the pivot at the BB and the dropout. The Specialized FSR is the most notable of these."

Aahh...the vagaries of "cut and paste" [smiley=disbelief.gif]

Matno · « **Reply #10 on:** June 17, 2003, 03:08:55 pm »

That makes more sense. I didn't really doubt your knowledge, you being our resident engineer and all... I just wanted to make sure somebody else didn't misunderstand. I am correct in saying that the Tirade is a "fancy monopivot" though, right? Seems like a lot of extra pivots for a simple design, but it must make SOME difference or you wouldn't see so many of them.

Oh, and Thunderchild: be sure to post pics of your Oz VERY soon. I've been waiting to see this thing for almost 3 years now!

Redshift · « **Reply #11 on:** June 18, 2003, 01:09:47 am »

TC posted a thread a couple weeks ago that may be of interest.

http://idriders.com/cgi-bin/YaBB_K2/YaBB.pl?board=news;action=display;num=1054826516

For my two cents, I've ridden a few 4 bars and they are not all equal, just like 98 and later K2's are not the same as 97 Proflex's.

I can say for certain that single pivots kick back over sharp obstacles like roots and rocks far more than the FSR rear end. When folks say the FSR sticks like glue, they aren't kidding.

pic 1. http://www.verdigris-online.com/A2Jam/rider.jpg

This guy nearly face planted into a tree about 15 yards further down.

pic 2 http://www.verdigris-online.com/A2Jam/rider5.jpg

Different section but the same speed and similar obstacle. Note the rear wheel difference.

The K2 single pivot may feel softer, but when the back end is in the air, for even a split second, it's enough to cause real problems. Probably not such a big deal for average trail riding, but when going gets fast and sketchy and you're pointing downhill....

Having said that, on my local tech trail, I've seen a disturbing number of Enduros break. From broken welds to stripped BB shells. I can recall three out of four that I know of just last season.

ps, I run a Stratos Helix Pro on my DM.

Scott · « **Reply #12 on:** June 18, 2003, 04:51:40 am »

Very clear pics-what's your camera setup? The K2 rider would have much better results if he laid off the brakes, especially the rear to avoid the mono pivot kickback. We (monopivots) give up something in rear suspension action while braking and clearing logs has a way of making this Really obvious and a practiced hand at the bars helps a lot.

Tom_A. · « **Reply #13 on:** June 18, 2003, 05:11:10 am »

Matno wrote:

"I am correct in saying that the Tirade is a "fancy monopivot" though, right? Seems like a lot of extra pivots for a simple design, but it must make SOME difference or you wouldn't see so many of them."

Yep...I'd consider the Tirade a "fancy monopivot". In fact, the K2 Razorback, Launch, Attack, and Tirade are all "fancy monopivots" in my book. Take a close look at the "swingarms" on all these bikes....notice anything similar? Save for possibly the lengths and/or material, they appear to be identical. The only differences in the suspension portion of these frames are the shock actuation linkage.

The only legitimate reason for having a complicated linkage actuating the shock is to change the shock actuation rates....I think this could be handled much easier with progressive rate springs and/or shock valving a la the 5th element shock.

Otherwise, it's just fashion. In other words "if it looks like a 4 bar, it must be as good as a 4 bar".

Simply a case of "me too" bike design.

numbnuts · « **Reply #14 on:** June 19, 2003, 03:08:32 am »

so that's why i keep crashing on logs, I thought it was because i'm a crap rider! Seriously , I can jump off stuff and roll down some steep, gnarly shit no prob, but then I'll slam going over a twig. The Evo back end does bounce a bit at speed, adjusting the shock helps a lot if you can, I'd love to try the 5th Element. I don't find braking to be a big prob, you lose some action but it tends to sit lower rather than jack up, and i don't brake when jumping. To me the Evo is real easy to keep level in the air and land on the rear wheel if needed. It can be a problem if you have to clear a small obstacle on the edge of a drop, tends to kick up the rear as you launch and push the front down, I think that is just bad timing on my part tho'. Tried my friends Dare and it didn't feel any better to me.

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Author Topic: Disco monkey compares to ? (Read 5352 times)

jimbo

Tom_A.

Tom_A.

Tom_A.