k2 Proflex 5000 XC geometry question

[junkster]

Hi,
  anyone who has been unfortunate enough to stumble across my post on this forum will know I am a bit of a have a go DIYer nut with about as much engineering expertise as Homer Simpson.  

To say my bike is a bit of a monster is an understatement!

Here is the beauty:



I mainly ride XC if the truth be known and currently with the addition of a long set of xlinks on my 18 1/2" frame, I am experimenting with the geometry to get it right. I am 15st (200lbs?) and 6.2ft tall and usually find the pressure is in my wrists a lot when riding. I also find downhills a little daunting as it is a pain to drop the saddle height everytime I do a decent, so tend to leave it up.

Short of buying a new rusty stead, (no chance), I wonder if there are any tips you experienced riders () can impart.

Since the new long xlinks were installed the front of the bike has been raised considerably. Colin suggested I purchase an original ULM rather that the longer one installed. A possibility, but for now I have reversed the stem so it is pointed down. I have also dropped the seat back to its full extent. (I hope this doesn't put too much levered pressure on the rear shock, it does hangover quite a bit more).

I have it set so at the 3 o'clock position when pedalling, my knee is roughly hovering above the crank centre. I have almost full leg extension with the saddle height too. The saddle height is slightly higher than the handlebar height too.

Also, I read somewhere that the distance from the front end of the saddle to the top of the steer tube is ideal if you have the distance from your elbow to your finger tips. Is this true

Any advice

cheers Dan  [smiley=beer.gif]

[Simon]

For your size the frame sounds/looks (18 1/2")like its a bit on the small size for you ,personally I'd say lowering the stem height will put more pressure on your wrists,how about flipping the stem back over and raising the stem height and trying that to see if it improves things (should help on the D/hills to) and its a no cost option,unfortunatly bike setup is normally a personal thing and what works for some doesn't work for others,maybe you could look into different stem lengths and rises(know anyone you could borrow from just to try first???),you could also look into seat post layback (more or less depending on what you need),difficult one this because setup can be such a personal thing its not often you can jump on someone else's rig and feel at home,how bent are your elbows when your riding or are your arms out stretched
sorry don't think I've been to much help here,maybe when I'm out on the south downs and we come across each other I can see your problem better.
Simon.

[junkster]

Hi Simon,
           sure. Was really a cheap purchase hence why I settled for the smaller frame. My 855 was also an 18 1/2 frame and was set at a really ideal geometry for uphills but downhills it wasn't great.

The stem change was recent and hasn't been tested as yet. I have ridden with the stem the right way and the front was too high. Just couldn't resist the long xlinks at such a bargain price. I think I'll invest in a smaller degree rise stem with a longer reach when I get paid next week. That'll probably make a lot of difference. The best change I made was actually loosing 2st in weight. (Riding with 17st in body weight resting on yer wrists is a real pain!! )
Just gotta loose at least another 1/2 st and I reckon I'll have it just right.

cheers, [smiley=beer.gif]

Dan

[Carbon_Angus]

I like Simon's suggestions to start.

Try an offset seatpost like a RaceFace Xy (see my gallery, Oz) You can get back a little more that way, too....just don't take too much stock into the angle of my seat.

And....I always lower my seat now when going down a longer, steep hill. It places center of gravity lower and makes things much more stable.

I dunno....your size (height), the XC geometry of the FRAME...and an X~link!!! albeit with the longer legs...I don't think you will ever get comfortable going downhill with any setup that includes an x~link and the size of the frame vs your height. Just from my experience...6' 1" 1/2 and about 200+ with gear.

[smiley=beer.gif]

[Matno]

I dunno....your size (height), the XC geometry of the FRAME...and an X~link!!! albeit with the longer legs...I don't think you will ever get comfortable going downhill with any setup that includes an x~link and the size of the frame vs your height. Just from my experience... [smiley=beer.gif]

Agreed. I don't know if it's possible to be entirely comfortable in all types of riding on any one bike - especially if it's not the perfect size. That said, I've got a Large 5000 AND a Medium (technically the medium belongs to the wife, but I have it set up light and ride it more than she does). I love the medium on really technical stuff - it's easier to wheelie on, and much easier to nose-wheelie due to the shorter top tube. However, for rough, fast type riding, especially with steep downhills, I doubt you will ever feel completely comfortable on ANY 3" fork, let alone an X-link. Having your bars higher helps a lot though. The farther back behind your bars you can sit, the more stable you'll feel on the downhills. A setback seatpost could certainly help, but then it looks like you've already got one that's about as far back as they go. Of course, if you're willing to spring a couple hundred bucks for a seatpost, there's a cool new one that adjusts up and down with the touch of a button... (either a handlebar mounted button or a seatpost one, depending on how much you're willing to spend!)

[Sprucey]

I agree with all the above.

The immediate change I would make is to flip the stem back to lift the bars. At the moment you have too much weight on your hands which exacerbates the problem of tackling DHs on those forks - all the bike wants to do is throw you over the front on DHs.

If you are doing a steep downhill you should not be on the saddle anyway - you MUST stand on the pedals (even on a full suspension bke) and push your weight back behind the saddle. On moderate slopes it's great to grip the side of the saddle with your inner thighs as that helps you to steer the bike by leaning it over rather than just turning the bars.

For really steep downhills, I am right back off the saddle - even to the extent of having the back of the saddle pressed into my stomach! Hence the need to drop the saddle for longer or technical DHs. (If you have shorts with a droopy gusset/crutch you can get caught and can't get back on the saddle - sometimes amusing!)

Titec make aseatpost called the Scoper which allows good saddle adjustment on bikes with interrupted seat tubes like the Proflex. It works well but in my opinion is too heavy for regular XC work.

Now for something heinous on this site - "get ride of the linkage forks!" Modern 100mm telescopic forks work so much better - it will be a revelation!

I know,I know, I love the Girvins as well but they are just not suited for modern free-riding with a mix of XC and steep technical DHs. They are great for XC racing and that style of riding. At the end of the day you can ride any bike down any hill - it just depends how fast you want to go, how skillfull you are and how big your cojones (spelling?) are. The linkage fork will restrict things a bit.

Sprucey

[junkster]

Hi Sprucey,
              Get rid of my xlinks - never!!

I had a set of Marzocchi Z1 dropoffs with 130mm around 4 years ago and they were great so know where you are coming from. I actually do minimal downhill so it is not a major issue - I'll invest in a longer reach stem with just a bit less of a rise than the current (when installed right way up). I just love xlinks for cross country, and unlike telescopics you don't seem to get the 'throwing over the handlebar feel when braking'  (well that could have been previous bike set ups but I have been building my own bikes for 10 years and would have got it right at least once (You'd think!)  [smiley=laughing.gif])


Xlinks are there to stay

Great advice people.

thanks again.

Dan  [smiley=beer.gif]

ps cojones? www.dictionary.com doesn't come up wiv anything  [smiley=laughing.gif]

[Colin]

Junkster Dan
I Think you'll find that "Cojones" are our Colonial friends' term for............... BALLS!.....from the Spanish, I believe?

I agree with everyone.....(coward!) I think X-Links are great for X-Country because they're lighter than a lot of other suspension forks and they don't "pogo" so much under pedalling, nor "dive" under braking. Even for Downhill I prefer the fact that they have a limited travel, as I don't like that "bottomless" feel that some forks give you.

If you feel your wrists are taking too much weight then you probably need to lift the front end and ride a bit more "sit up and beg". I definately agree with the comments about staying out of the saddle
during descents and gripping the saddle between your thighs, or even hanging behind it, this should really completely remove any excess weight on your wrists......are you saying you've got limp wrists.....?<GRIN>
I've got my bikes set up with bars set as low as they'll go, albeit with a riser stem and the saddles slightly above them. Looking at the photo of the 5000 (looking good btw!) they look about the same relationship as mine, but maybe even lower bars, so I'd agree with reversing the stem into a riser. As for reach, bottom line is wether you feel "cramped" or "stretched" to reach and work the bars......

As we worked out, changing the ULM won't lose you much height, what was it, 13mm? and I don't think that's what you need to achieve here. To be Honest for your height and weight maybe you should have been looking for a "Way Big", they sometimes sell quite cheaply compared with Mediums and Larges.

I find most of the problem with wrist ache is caused by the angle of the handlebars in relation to your wrists, i.e. are your hands bent left or right excessively when on the grips? Also , I now use Specialized Body Geometry gloves and I think they really work! (As do the SBG saddles!)

Col.

[junkster]

Hi Colin,
          darn it ...my dictionary joke was misinterpreted!!  [smiley=beer.gif]

Cheers. Think you maybe right about not bothering about the 13mm saving with a new ULM.

Limp wrists - dunno what yer mean....ducky!! [smiley=laughing.gif]

You have hit the nail on the head with the grips angle  [smiley=nod.gif]- Now I think about it I can never seem to get the angle right that is totally comfortable, (my hands tend to twist out slightly, which can ache after a while. Doesn't help I broke my scafoid bone in my right wrist a year ago, (got hit by a car don't ya know?!)  [smiley=blankstare.gif]

Might look into these gloves as an aid. I have a cut away Specialized BG saddle which though narrow, is really comfortable. Doesn't crush yer 'cajones'!!
cheers,

Dan   [smiley=beer.gif]

[Colin]

Sorry, I spoil all the best jokes!

Ouch! Scafoid eh? that'll definately give you a limp wrist if you don't have it fixed!
I've been knocked off a few times by cars, but nothing broken,........Yet!

Was it a "SMIDSY" ??

"Sorry Mate, I Didn't See You!"

That's what I've been told, when I'm standing there in fluorescent yellow riding Kit !!

Yeh, getting that handlebar angle right is a tricky one, just slacken off the riser/bar clamp and rotate it and keep trying it until it's about right, then ride it and see if it any better........doh, just told you how to suck eggs! sorry!

Also, handlebar width is another relevant factor for the same problem, most handlebars come stock very wide and you can cut them down to suit your own riding position, I'm 5' 8" and I usually take about 50mm off of a stock 600mm bar. But if you're tall and wide then maybe you don't need to do this.
Obviously this is a "no-going back" job, I personally take all of the handlebar kit off (changers etc etc) and then just rotate the bar around, and slide my hands in and out on the bars until it feels about right
(Fnarr Fnarr, Ooh Err Missus!)
and maybe your wrists & hands looks in alignment.

Have fun!

Col.

[junkster]

Hi Colin,
          more of a gomwiotr (get out my way I own the road) [smiley=furious.gif]

Was broad daylight too!!

I have thought of cutting down the bars a tiny bit but then thought the better of it (and just moved the grips in a bit). As you know I hate butchering my bike!!

Flipped the stem back the right way:

http://idriders.com/proflex/galleries/junkster/5000_Feb_05_.jpg

I have tried many times rotating the handlebars and never seem to hit the right angle, but now I have adjusted the saddle I may have cracked it.

cheers,
Dan

[StoereVent]

Hi Dan,

I can imagine that a setup like yours at this moment makes ik easier to do steep downhills, but is it possible to go really fast not going downhill with your bars that high and your saddle so much to the back? I have my saddle way above my bars, but then again, the downhills here in the Netherlands aren't that steep and long...in fact we don't have downhills at all.

Jeroen.

[Matno]

Having your saddle way above your bars pretty much eliminates the fun of riding down hills. (Doesn't do much for tight, winding singletrack in my opinion either). Then again, I understand where you're coming from in the Netherlands. I lived just across the border in Emden and Leer for a few months and you're definitely right when you say there are no hills! For that situation, having your bars really low relative to the saddle can be a good thing, but I still think it's more fun to have them up high for more technical stuff like stairs (I'm sure you can find some of those!)