Author Topic: What the "L" ? (Read 4758 times)

Old Proflexer · « **on:** July 28, 2003, 05:39:30 am »

to lock or not to lock - that is the question.

after having my 5th element for over a year on the back end of my carbon - and with our mono pivot, proactive suspension design bikes, why and under what circumstances would i ever want a shock that would lock out the rear suspension?

i was giving it some thought and can't ever recall a circumstance when i thought
'boy, i sure wish i could lock out the back end'

now the front is a different matter entirely as i'm always fiddling with my psylo sl making it longer, shorter, changing the compression for climbs, crossing dry river beds when i really want total control, and the occasional road ride home, lock it out. during climbs or long upgrades, keeping the front from bouncing up and down is a great thing for me - hit the top of the hill, spin the knob and back to the old up and down thing again. energy transfer is so much more efficient when cranking up a steep hill and the front is locked.

the back end, i appreciate the give on the upside of steep hills and i feel that having at least a somewhat active suspension is necessary to keep the back wheel in contact with the dirt to keep from breaking loose. those steep sections where too much power or too low a gear with softer dirt will spin out the tire even with optimal weight balance 'tween front and rear wheel. i find the same on faster more level riding with fireroad types of turns, i feel if i were locked out, the back end would be bouncing around and again, lose traction. 'specially on fast bumps with turns, having a 'proactive rear suspension' keeps my keester on the seat and the rubber side down and helps save my ankles an knees from taking it all in.

under what circumstances would i want to lock out my rear xc style of suspension and ride it like a hardtail? am i missing something here or just set in my ways? any bikes with these weights aren't svelte racing hardtails without the extra weight of all the pivots and shocks and stuff.

any thoughts, yea or nea, good, bad or otherwise? -

OP

Carbon_Angus · « **Reply #1 on:** July 28, 2003, 06:24:00 am »

i think the "L" word is silly for rear suspension, you aren't missing anything, i agree.

as far as the front, yeah lockout.

[smiley=beer.gif]

Matno · « **Reply #2 on:** July 28, 2003, 09:09:57 am »

Two thoughts:

1) Rear lockout is a more noticeable improvement than front lockout.

2) Lockouts are rarely necessary, beneficial, or even just nice to have on anything but pavement.

Okay, I'll elaborate a little more... When I've used bikes with front and rear lockout, I've always thought the rear lockout has a much bigger effect on efficiency (i.e. eliminating "bob"). The front wheel, when locked out, seems to hit bumps much harder than a locked out rear (duh - the front wheel hits all your weight INTO the bump whereas with the rear wheel, your weight is in front pulling the wheel OVER the bump), but doesn't seem to reduce bob nearly as much as the rear lockout. That said, I never use my current rear lockout on anything but pavement. It just throws me off to switch back and forth. There's nothing quite as annoying as forgetting that your shock is locked out until you try to preload the spring for a jump over an obstacle. Ouch!

However, with newer forks and their option to reduce travel for climbs, that's a different story. I'd love an adjustable Psylo, but I just don't see a need for a fully locked out fork. On the other hand, I'm still a sucker for gadgets, and given the option, I'll usually go for whatever is fancier (if I can afford it).

Bottom line: if you want it because you think it might be beneficial to your riding, forget it. It's not worth the extra money. If you just plain want it (i.e. if you would always wonder about it after you bought a non-lockout shock, and beat yourself up over the decision) go for it.

Just my thoughts...

Scott · « **Reply #3 on:** July 28, 2003, 05:01:24 pm »

For certain a rear lockout's a big help on pavement or smooth dirt uphills-can't think of anywhere else I'd like it.

StoereVent · « **Reply #4 on:** July 28, 2003, 07:36:01 pm »

I don't have any lock-out system, but always thought it would be benificial, even off road. Hearing from your experience, my feeling of missing something has been reduced something.

(Saves ne a lot of money: thanks.)

pedro · « **Reply #5 on:** August 04, 2003, 01:27:28 pm »

I had an air rear shock (stratos) with lock out on my racing bike; never used it. So when it was time to replace it, I got a fox float without lockout. Recently I purchased a fox R, no lockout, for my evo. If I turn the rebound knob at full damping, the shock locks!!!!
I use the shock with 0, zero, damping and hardly ever move it from there.

pedro · « **Reply #6 on:** August 04, 2003, 01:34:39 pm »

I don't understand why, after having a 5th element shock you would replace it with a fox air shock; unless my idea of the 5th element is misleading: little bobbing on a long travel coil sprung shock. I would guess: a need to experiment with other types of shocks???

Matno · « **Reply #7 on:** August 04, 2003, 03:11:52 pm »

Quote

I don't understand why, after having a 5th element shock you would replace it with a fox air shock;

My guess would be close to a pound and a half of good reasons... (I don't know the actual weights other than that the 5th is quite a beast, and the Fox Float is quite light).

Also, a plain old Fox air shock is pretty dang nice for some types of riding. Many of the newer "fancier" shocks don't have enough "bounce" for preloading a good hop over a log. They're too busy absorbing and smoothing everything out. My Stratos Helix Pro is kind of that way. I miss having a spring to launch me, but in the rough stuff, it's much smoother than my old shock...

Old Proflexer · « **Reply #8 on:** August 05, 2003, 01:08:00 am »

pedro - couple things

i love to try new things and most of the other guys i know locally, don't know their handlebars from a seat post. i've no one to swap parts with and try new things - an air shock's been on my radar screen lately and it'll eventually look great on my 'other' 4500 with a carbon crosslink that i'll be putting an avid disc brake set up on - ft. and rear. gonna use it for a bit and team it up with my psylo sl.

make no mistake, the 5th performs as claimed - i've just got been saving my drachmas and decided to invest it them my sport. i looked at the swingers but the thought of being able to change the length of a rear air shock from 8.25" to 8.0" to 7.75" and back again in the flick of a switch, combine it with 3-5" of length and travel of a psylo sl and my local long climbs and long fireroad down downrides -
hey, with all that, who needs viagra

OP

keen · « **Reply #9 on:** August 05, 2003, 01:24:55 am »

I run a Stratos Helix Pro w/ lockout in the rear and a Psylo U-turn up front. I find that locking the rear on long, smooth uphills reduces pedal bob. I run un locked 90% of the time. I purchased the Psylo thinking I would adjust the fork down on climbs and up again for DH- did it once or twice only. I usually ride non stop or single track in a med. sized group. I stopped to adjust my Psylo before an up-hill and my buddie says " using that band-aid again" I thought after that stament why don't I set the bike up to ride the trails rather than stop and modify it for varying conditions. Just the occasional rear lock works for me, now if you like to tinker @ home as well as the trails maybe F&R lockouts, travel adjustments, dampning adj's are for you.

Old Proflexer · « **Reply #10 on:** August 05, 2003, 06:39:01 am »

keen,

you and i have communicated directly and i realize that you thought the air shock was too soft for you so you switched out and are running a coil over now.

i find with my pivot design that running an nr-2, nr-4, nr-5, 5th element, i had little to no noticable (to me) rear end bob/movement that affected my riding. i do notice the crosslink and psylo sl bouncing up and down on those small to medium size hills where i'm pumping away (keep in mind please that 85 year old women using walkers because of their recent hip replacements move up a hill faster than i do - but i do try to make a race of it) and i feel like i lose a lot of energy up and down in the front. i just reach down and spin the knob on the psylo to the right and lock it out, when i hit the top, do the opposite. i find that i run it some where near locked out most of the time and loosen it up when it get into my familiar rough terrain.

as for length adjustment - when i'm gonna do a major hill, i have no qualms about setting at 3" and lock it or out to 5" and soft on a long down hill. it's not a bandaid for the situation - not any more than using gears is offensive to single speeders. it's technology to make the ride safer and more fun - no macho, testosterone or peer pressure here.

hey, i paid for it - i'm gonna use it.

i'm interested in the ride for the new shock, without a lock out lever, it should fit just the opposite of how you had it mounted on yours (i think) - with the length controls towards the wheel and the rebound knob down. i'm again presumining you couldn't mount it that way as the lock lever would interfer with the swingarm. please comment.

i'm running discs so there should be no brake interference on the bottom mount and the top mount to the 4500 is very near the edge of the plates (about .75") as opposed to deeper set evo design and there was about an .875" shaft to eye after the stroke was accounted for, of remaining shaft - i may need to tweak the lip on each side of the main body housing as the lip width and internal space 'tween the plates was about identical - in the event of touch but i'm hoping it'll be minor at best. (i plan to cycle the shock with out air to find out first)

your comments and pictures were very helpful and what go me interested in this project in the first place. since some of the other guys are running air shocks, it thought i'd give it a try with a talas

OP

Dennis · « **Reply #11 on:** August 05, 2003, 07:23:38 am »

OP,
your comments about how you use your Psylo fork ring true to me. That is how I am using my Talas fork.
I can't wait to find out how the Talas rear shock works on the carbon frames.
I love the Talas fork. It works as advertised. Very easy to change travel settings, although its too bad they didn't just put a 3 click setting for 3, 4, and 5 inches of travel as they did on the rear shock. even a click for each half inch of travel would have been preferable to the 3mm of travel per click that they came up with. hard to quickly adjust travel from dh to uh as in my neck of the woods there is quite a bit of down the gully, up the gully, type riding with almost no flat in between.
having said that, I really like the way the fork performs and if the rear shock is similar, it should make for quite a great ride indeed.
good luck with the installation and please keep us informed (as I am sure you will, you always have in the past and I am sure you will continue to do so).
[smiley=groucho.gif]

keen · « **Reply #12 on:** August 05, 2003, 04:01:33 pm »

I am pretty sure the lockout to swingarm interference was an issue. I am not sure if you know this allready but the travel adj. housing can be rotated. On the Switchblades they run the travel adjustments rotated about 35 deg. from center. Other than the cutout for the air vavle the installation was cake. The biggest problem was @ about 1.75" shock travel the main body of the shock hit the upper frame shock mounting plates. I didn't feel like modifying this part of the frame. Reason being the shock blew thru too much travel even w/ 225 psi air. The shock has a linear air spring which didn't have enough compression for my taste. Seems like the single pivot supension leverage ratio, on an Evo, is a bit much for an air shock.

Old Proflexer · « **Reply #13 on:** August 06, 2003, 01:37:08 am »

maybe that's why they went to the AV (adjustable volume) feature on some of the newer shocks, to increase pressure near the end of the stroke

i just remeasured, the center of the mount hole on the 4500 is 3/8" from the edge of the plate and the shock by my instore calcs show the shock shaft has 2.75" exposed to mounting eyelet. minus the 2" travel gives me .75" left.

shocks not here yet, time will tell.

OP

pedro · « **Reply #14 on:** August 07, 2003, 04:10:34 am »

OP, will you be keeping the 5th element? Or will you sell it? I may be interested [smiley=nod.gif]

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Author Topic: What the "L" ? (Read 4758 times)