FREE AT LAST!!!!

[jazclrint]

Finally, I can get rid of that last little bit of Shimano that has been haunting for all these years!  We are Free!!!

http://www.sram.com/en/srammountain/components/x7/frontderailleur.php

[jeffhop]

ive just put one of the x-7 front mechs on my hardtail and it works a treat, might have to get one for my oz.

[jazclrint]

Just a little update:

I rode the FD just gubbin' around my brother's (my home while school's out) and it seemed to work much better than the XT I had on there.  But, not as well as I'd like, and it weighs a significant amount more.  So much for my sub 25lb bike.  

I built a single track trail here at my brother's, about a half mile, and as soon as I get proper bolts back in my fork I'll give you guys a real update.  I will say this.  I tryied following the directions on how to set up the FD and they seemed pretty off.  I think it needs some more tweeking still, but I have to get those bolts first.
Later,
Rich

[jimbo]

The only thing SRAM still doesn't make is the E-Type derailuer.  

I'm using the SRAM Generation X Front derailleur on my HT.  Even with that I still have Shimano on my bike though you can't see it.  Its a square taper BB.  

As much as I love SRAM I have to admit the Shimano XT Hollowtech II is a nice crankset.  

My new Judge is totally Shimano free because that's how it came.

[orange]

Why don't people like Shimano? They're not Microsoft!! At least Shimano stuff works and lasts and isn't expensive...

[Lysander]

Aaah! That's only because you're using Shimano Home Premium............
Only hassle I've had with shimano stuff was the old 600/Ultegra STI units......then again, it's probably fettlaeable if I could be arsed!

[jimbo]

Why don't people like Shimano? They're not Microsoft!! At least Shimano stuff works and lasts and isn't expensive...

Read this:

http://www.branfordbike.com/cgi-bin/perlshop/perlshop.cgi?ACTION=push&thispage=shimano/shimano.html&ORDER_ID=458513093

http://www.branfordbike.com/shimano/brain.html

The Shimano price fixing scheme became moot in the mtb scene when Shimano dicated that dual control shifters and reverse rear derailleur would be the standard.  Around the same time SRAM X series trigger shifters and derailluers hit the scene and was a big hit.

Yes I'm not a Shimano fan but I'll buy it if I think it's a better product.  I own 2 sets XT Hollowtech II cranksets which I bought after the Shimano price fixing scheme because they are the best for the price and weight.

[orange]

oh...

[jazclrint]

Actually I would compare Microsoft and Shimano.  I know Shimano makes good stuff (atleast for Mt. Bikes) but being of the "ripe ol' age of" 30 I remeber the days when Shimano ran Suntour into the ground and all you could buy was Shimano.  And then when they put the squeeze on manufacturers who were putting SRAM shifters on their bikes.  They had a monopoly and were willing to play dirty to keep it.  That, and everyone has Shimano on their bike.  I have a Raceface Ti ISIS BB and Next LP carbon crank which I think are pretty trick.  Also I try to keep things American.  I know most, if not all, of SRAM's stuff is made overseas now, but they started off an American company.  That, and I don't like trigger shifters.  But I would put SRAM's low end stuff over shimano's any day.  Shimano's low end stuff is cheap, really cheap.  For a road bike comparison, I have 10 yr old 3rd level (Athena 8spd) Campy parts on my road bike, and my girlfreind's brand new Cannondale has Like Sora and tiagra bits, and it just feels so cheap and inpercise in comparison to my stuff that has 9000 miles on it!  That and most everyone else's stuff is rebuildable/repairable.  If you chunk a shimano part your out that whole part.  But most of my anti-shimanoism comes from their monopoly practices and and fact that it makes my bike that much more rare where there is no shimano on it.  

BTW I just upgraded to Campy 10 spd on the road bike but I am waiting for it to be done.  Can't wait.  Later, Rich

[orange]

I have to admit my ignorance of the whole monopoly price fixing thing...

[Matno]

I get a kick out of this whole "anti-Shimano" thing... I've always been a fan of Shimano and still am, but I have no problem with people who aren't. However, I think it's weird that people dislike Shimano just because it's Shimano. I like their stuff (particularly their shifters) because it's always been better than anyone else's. (At least up to the past 5 years or so).  

Their road bike shifters had a few years where I wasn't such a fan of the shape, but that's been fixed with the new 10-speed stuff. (Unfortunately, I can't afford to upgrade just yet). Their MTB trigger shifters have always been the best thing going. I've used the new SRAM triggers, and I like them, but they're not any better than my XT Rapidfires. (The only real difference is personal preference as to how you like to use your thumbs, IMHO). Never been a fan of grip shifters, although I never hated them either (still have them on one bike). Just not as easy to use. I love the crisp shifting and rebuildability of Campy, but their grip shape and positioning has always mystified me. How people can swear it's better than Shimano is beyond me.

I'm glad that SRAM has developed a bigger market share with a more diversified product line, because competition is ALWAYS good for us consumers. I think AVID brakes are the best made and have been for a good long while, and SRAM has done some amazing things since taking over the brand.

If you want an example of how being different just for the sake of being different is not a good thing, just look at the reliability of ISIS bottom brackets. The whole concept behind the ISIS standard was to provide a platform for smaller manufacturers to compete with Shimano by improving inter-brand compatibility. However, the design was inherently weak due to limitations on bearing size, and it was never as durable as Shimano's Octalink design. Even hard core brands like Race Face have had unusually high numbers of BB failures with just one or two seasons of use. My old XT BB from 1999 is still going strong with no sign of wear.

Also of interest: the U.S. Supreme Court just ruled in the past couple of weeks to overturn a law that prohibited manufacturers from setting minimum retail prices for their products. Always thought it was a weird law. If I were making a product and didn't want people "cheapening" my brand, I wouldn't want anyone blowing out their old inventory of my stuff below cost. And I certainly wouldn't want the government telling me what to do. If it were the government setting the price controls, that would be an entirely different matter (and morally wrong), but manufacturers absolutely have the right to control their prices by limiting the retailers to whom they sell. They may be hurting themselves by basing their marketing on flawed economic models, but they have the right to be inefficient. Eventually those sort of things correct themselves.

K2 is a good example of a company that shot itself in the foot: our beloved K2 bikes don't have a great reputation (except among those of us who knew and loved them before they lost the Proflex connection) because they have always been available in large quantities from discounters like ediscountbike while similar models were still being sold new. Destroy the resale value of a used bike like that and the whole brand gets a bad name. ("Why should I buy a new bike this year when I can get the same bike, brand new, next year for 1/3 the price?") Of course, the Noleen suspension didn't help the reputation either. My buddy who ran a bike shop that sold them said that 80% of the SmartShocks he sold came back for replacement within a year. That's awful. My own SmartShock only lasted about 3 months from brand new to useless pogo.

For now, I'll probably stick with Shimano. They may be overpriced, but then, I never buy anything from retailers anymore anyway. Go Craigslist and eBay!!! I'm counting on the rest of you to buy the overpriced new stuff, use it for a couple of months, then sell it to me cheap in "like-new" condition...

Did I mention that I also like Microsoft?

[Tel]

Hey Matno, just like you I cant see the deal about shimano, thier kit always seems very reliable to me, I use thier fishing reels in national championships in the UK because I know I can depend on them not letting me down, having spent a lot of time and effort just to make the squad the last thing I need to even think about is if my kit will louse up in the most important 5 hours of my year.
Mrs Tel also uses shimano on her road bike and I think had the only snarl up on our bike kit one of her dura ace brake/gear levers didnt index properly from new, shimano replaced the pair in days so we could go to the tour de france. they like every other piece of thier kit has performed faultlessly ever since.
Of course if you find different kit suits your needs better go get `em, but dont narrow your field for a principle thats not there in the first place.
Cheers, Tel.

[willem]

Shimano's products and development are the envy of manufacturers around the world. Those who don't envy Shimano are simply unaware of how good they are.

First, how can any business survive the craziness of the bicycle industry for decade after decade?

Second, how does Shimano consistently raise the bar every year with technology developments that simply work.

Isis, Octalink, Square Taper... once you've tried the XBB, you'll never look back. It's a classic example of elegant engineering: Fewer parts, greater strength, lighter weight, and better performance.

I put in a Deore 585 XBB on one 856 and was astounded at the beauty of the workmanship. And that's the low end. I put a RaceFace XBB (copycat) on my other 856 and was equally amazed at the kluge. The directions for installation openly admit that you've got to beat the crap out of it to make it fit right. Then it took over 100 miles to break it in properly.

As a product manager trying to reach world class development for a coupla $B in sales, I WISH I could come close to what Shimano does.

While I admire Apple, I'm writing this on a PC. "P" is for practical. When I have more free time and money, I'll buy a Mac.

[orange]

this is a great debate - keep it up!

[jazclrint]

I did forget to mention that I too like Mocrsoft and I don't always understand what all the moaning is about.  I have used the Macs at school and they mistify me.  Not user freindly if you don't know Macs.  The higher end Shimano stuff works really well, but I have never liked the trigger shifters.  I like Campy and SRAM shifting for the ability to grap a lot of gears at once.  It is a feature I use all the time and really like.  And when the SRAM grip shifts first came out they were 3 parts.  The tiny little Shimano shifters were something like 20, and when I was racing in the late 90's they were not the most reliable.  I knew a lot of people who were having failures and couldn't afford replacements so they went with the then new Grip shifts.  If you are riding Dura-Ace/XTR you are not going to have a problem, but if you are running anything under 105/STXRC(?) It's not just heavier, it works significantly less percise.  I had no idea about the ISIS problem, but I only have 200 to 300 miles on mine and I weigh 220lbs.  But Campy FINALLY came out with an XBB design that is even simpler and stronger than Shimano's.  But I'm sure they'll top that soon.  Compitition is so sweet.  I will say I have used a rigged up 5.0 FD, an XT FD, and now a X.7 FD on my 5500 and the shimano one worked the worst.  And it was setup by a shop, plus tweeked on the trail by a mechanic.  But the X.7 doesn't seem to work as well as the rigged 5.0 did.  It may need some tweeking.  But the XT is lighter, and an XTR is much lighter.  I used to ride Shimano and I am well aware that it just works, but it's just not my preference.