Annual Rant / Boast

[willem]

Okay... This month's MBA magazine put a Santa Cruz Heckler on the cover with some crazy headline like; "Best Bike Deal Ever."

As you turn the pages of this - and any other MTB magazine - you quickly discover very little has changed since the 856. Obviously shocks, brakes, forks, and other parts have vastly improved, but the Heckler! Puhleeze! It's a single pivot for goodness' sake. For that matter the entire line of Specialized, Turner, Trek, and many other bikes are basically single pivots. Sure, they move the pivot around and come up with lots of ways to squeeze their shocks, but they're pretty much all the same as the old 856.

(Okay, the VP and "Maverick type" bikes are notable design breakthroughs. They are also wickedly complex and flexy. Good ride. Short life. Anyone out there trying to maintain one of those Giant Maestro bikes? Good luck!)

So here's the point... Take any of these "ancient" bikes from Matno's 4000 to Simon's 856, or even my silver 856 and put 'em up against any of these modern single pivot bikes. The way I see it, the emperor has no clothes! All these "new designs" are pretty much the same old thing just recycled (pardon the pun) with new components and lots of marketing spin.

I continue to try out demos - the LBS keeps forcing me to - and I can't believe the lack of difference after 10 years of development.

Please tell me where I've gone wrong or at least tell me my eyes are not deceiving me.

[Nightowl]

yup, i've got that copy of MBA in front of me right now, and i could not beleive it myself. that design is so simple and so similar to the designs of a decade ago. eveyone always said proflex was way ahead of its time? To be honest though im a big fan of simple and reliable
                   Matt B

[kiwi]

if they had come with a better shock proflex would now rule the world......

[Matno]

It's absolutely true. Proflex was WAY ahead of its time. However, the one difference I've noted between my 5000 and a lot of other bikes is that the rear carbon swingarms are more flexy than ANYTHING else I've tried. That's the only thing I see as a drawback to the EVO frame design. The strut bikes (like the 856) have more torsional stiffness.

That Heckler ain't a bad looking bike though. I'm just surprised they would put it ahead of some of the fancier designs from Santa Cruz...

[Carbon_Angus]

if they had come with a better shock proflex would now rule the world......

agree.  "piggybacking" Noleen onto Pro~Flex and k2 AND not putting any real R&D into the Nr shocks is what it's all about.

there has been a ton of advancement in shocks and forks for that matter.

the bike industry needs to move forward year by year to get folks to buy "new" bikes...i cannot tell you how in lust i am with my Race proflex, circa '98.  

[smiley=beer.gif]

[shovelon]

if they had come with a better shock proflex would now rule the world......

That's why I have a second Air Swinger 3 coming my way for my Oz. A little platform really goes a long way to maximize longer travel efficiency.

One benefit of the flexy Evo carbon swingarm is that I can run a crazy light rear wheel assy. Instead of the wheel taking the side force, the swingarm gives alittle.

The framesets are really beautifully crafted on the 856 and 957. But if you look at the 856 really close, the detail is astounding. The whole rear swingarm/frame mount is so clean.

[Carbonman1]

I totally agree.  I have owned many many bikes and I always feel more capable on my Proflex designs.  I put a Swinger on my Oz some time ago and it was transformative in terms of rear suspension feel and tunability.  I too demo new super bikes and I come away smiling about my "old bikes."  Now that I'm 44, My old bikes can get my old butt up and down a trail faster than most of the newer mods.  I still got joy...

[Colin]

The only thing that attracts me is the WHYTE "4 Pivot" design back end and their "Plus 4" type parallelogram front forks......... i.e.The PRST-4 and the JW-4 ............

Anyone tried one of these and what do you think?

I've got a Manitou Swinger 4 way Coil 240mm (9 1/2") and a 5th Element air shock 220mm (8 3/4") to try out on my Oz's or my 4000, what do you reckon will happen......? <grin>

Col

[Simon]

The only thing that attracts me is the WHYTE "4 Pivot" design back end and their "Plus 4" type parallelogram front forks......... i.e.The PRST-4 and the JW-4 ............

Anyone tried one of these and what do you think?

I've got a Manitou Swinger 4 way 240mm (9 1/2") and a 5th Element air shock 225mm (9") {I think} to try out on my Oz's or my 4000, what do you reckon will happen......? <grin>

Col

As most now know I have a Whyte(46),
firstly I've never tried Whytes parallelogram forks but the reviews were very mixed,supurb bump compliance but excessive dive under braking,plus other issue's I would need to research,it was one of those forks that as many loved it there was as many who hated it,personally I liked the look and idea,
as for the 4 pivot rear end I ABSOLUTELY love it but then again its not a real comparrison with my 856 or 4500 as the Whyte has 6" travel, but what I have found is the Whytes traction on climbs is as good as the 856 which I consider has to be a compliment to the Whyte as the 856 is an awesome climber,but the best thing I've found is no matter what front ring I'm in or gear I've never experienced any suspension induced pedal feedback,the terrain I ride is pretty susceptible to giving this and I often got this on my 856 and 4500 though not enough to spoil the ride,

if I'd stuck with single pivot I'd just stay riding my 856 and 4500 as there is nothing out there IMHO as a single pivot that beats them.

Simon.

[Carbon_Angus]

that's why you'd NEVER see a comparison test between a new bike and an old classic. Sure I want the new bits, but when you talk about frame and pivot design...nuff said.

the rider has a lot to do with it, too....and we are all studs here anyways....lol

[smiley=beer.gif]

[Carbonman1]

I have a Whyte PRST-1 with the Plus Fours fork.  The fork is indeed exceptional with small bumps and large ones alike.  It behaves much like a Fournales.  The reported dive doesn't bother me since I come from a X-link background.   It is an XC machine and that is where it shines.  The rear is a bit short on travel so it doesn't seem as well matched to the front as it could be.  The bike does have a very different feel to it though.  It corners like a you wouldn't believe.  I have yet to have the front end wash out.  Cool bike, but the Proflexes get the real mileage.