Shock Advice Needed

[onealpha]

Hello Everyone,



I have been visiting this wonderful forum since the old days, but never needed to post until recently when it became necessary to make some upgrades to the two sleds aging gracefully in my garage.  

A little background:

I purchased my first Pro-flex back in 97 or 98 from BikePro.com.  It was an 856 and I absolutely fell in love with it and still own it.  A few years ago when eDiscount and Supergo were blowing out K2 stuff I purchased a 4000 frame as an upgrade and was really disappointed with the quality of the welds on the frame compared to my 856 witch looks like it was sculpted by a supreme master welder (exaggeration of course, but they are beautiful).  I then purchased a OZ M frame, transferred all of my titanium and carbon parts and built what I ride regularly today.  I will try not to carry on about the bike, but I absolutely cannot imaging replacing it or ever selling it.  It is just that satisfying to ride, especially where I live where it is mostly technical XC.  

I recently decided to do a major service and have been making a few upgrades.  I rebuilt my wheels and picked up another set.  I just installed a set of Magura HS33's as I really don't need disc for my terrain and didn't want to modify the bike any more than was absolutely necessary.  I am installing a new headset and decided to clean and lube the forks.



Now, I wasn't planning on doing anything with the shocks until they gave up on me, but it appears that my front Smartshock has lost its nitrogen charge.  I have another Smartshock that is still sitting on my 4000 frame and I will use that until I find a suitable replacement if it is still in good shape (gotta pull it out of storage as I was keeping it for parts).  I am not sure what is on the back of the OZ, but it is not a Smart, It does not have a piggy, and it has a small dampening knob at the base.  It appears to be ok for the time being but I still need to pull it apart to make sure.  



So, for the question:



I have been searching this forum in an effort to make a decision on what to replace my Smartshock on the front carbon crosslinks with.  I am considering replacing the rear as well at the same time.  Keep in mind that travel is not my primary concern as I do not do any downhill.  Actually, in South Florida, anything that we consider downhill would make most of the world laugh.  All of our descents are small, fun, and man made.  What I want to achieve is staying as close as possible to the original bike setup, but make it better by improving the quality of shocks used.  I have read posts about the risse, and am considering those.  I also read about the Cane Creek Cloud Nine for both front and back, but was unsure if I could do that without any modifications to the bike and was a little concerned about the fact that the max length is 200mm and the effect that would have on the geometry of the chassis.  I have heard mention of others in different lengths and combinations and to tell you the truth at this point I am just confused.  I was hoping that one of you may have some recommendations based on my situation and requirements.  Thanks in advance.

[Simon]

Sounds like you've got things well sorted,
firstly thats a Noleen Nr2 shock on the Oz its nitrogen charged to 200psi so don't pull it apart unless you really know what your doing,if the shocks performing ok leave it alone,
if you do wish to upgrade and you want to stay stock regarding i2i and stroke then you cant beat the Risse range,I liked the Astro5 best (for the rear),I wouldn't go for the clould9 (also for the rear)on this setup,its a good shock and light but the shock on a Oz frame has to be able to cope with lateral forces as well as compression (unlike strut bikes like the 856) , the Risse is well built and by using a large shaft and bearings for an air shock it is able to cope without any problems,
you have a nice range of bikes there  
Simon.

[Frankd3000]

So, for the question:

I have been searching this forum in an effort to make a decision on what to replace my Smartshock on the front carbon crosslinks with.  I am considering replacing the rear as well at the same time.  Keep in mind that travel is not my primary concern as I do not do any downhill.  Actually, in South Florida, anything that we consider downhill would make most of the world laugh.  All of our descents are small, fun, and man made.  What I want to achieve is staying as close as possible to the original bike setup, but make it better by improving the quality of shocks used.  I have read posts about the risse, and am considering those.  I also read about the Cane Creek Cloud Nine for both front and back, but was unsure if I could do that without any modifications to the bike and was a little concerned about the fact that the max length is 200mm and the effect that would have on the geometry of the chassis.  I have heard mention of others in different lengths and combinations and to tell you the truth at this point I am just confused.  I was hoping that one of you may have some recommendations based on my situation and requirements.  Thanks in advance.

Agreed with Simon about NOT running the Cloud Nine on your ride. (Simon - oddly enough, I never did hear back from them about this) It's a bit of a different world between the stru and non-strut bikes. Look for a more robust shock for the rear. Simon's recommendations are great!

I would, however, like to clear up one small misconception with what you said - when I originally set out to adapt the C9's on Frank I was VERY adamant from the beginning to NOT alter the geometry of the bike. I wanted to keep very close "tabs" on this. I was successfull and gained over 1/4" of front wheel travel and over 1/2" of rear wheel travel without altering the "feel" of the bike in the process (from a geometry perspective - the "suspension feel" was worlds different). No drilling was required (another strict rule), and IMHO, I don't consider bolt-on adaptors to be permanent modifications - hence the bolt-on name. A modification - yes. Permanent - no.

Anyways, I just wanted to be sure you understood that. You can adapt whatever you want and keep the geometry of the bike exactly the same as stock if you do your homework and watch what you're doing.

Good luck!

I predict a Manitou Swinger SPV recommendation coming.

[jazclrint]

Wow, you lasted long!  I don't think I was on here a month and fell to the darkside.  Please read my thread "Shock length for Carbon (and all?)?"  I too was very concerned about geometry, almost too concerned.  I fit Fox Float RL with AVA and Pro pedal dampening to both the front and rear and they work great, and I probably lost about a pound off of the bike.  I'm an XC guy, so thats why I went the route I did.  The rear requires no altering, just the adapter.  But the front requires the adapters (which mearly relocate the top pivot to provide proper ride hieght, and clearence between the shock and the frame) and smaller bolts and almost twice as many.  But top bracket needs to be machined on the port side to help the air valve clear.  I have yet to figure out how to make it so I can pump the front shock up without taking it out.  But the rear is easily accessed.  I also designed bushings and spacers.  There is a guy with a machine shop 5 miles from my house who helped me refine the design.  If I could find my drawings, and you send me that top bracket and the lock out levers, and I could get everything made, modified and sent to you for $150 or less.  But this design is for Fox Floats (and probably RP3 I have to look).  I would look into figuring out what ever shock you wanted if My 5500 was still here in this country.  If you are really interested I will beg for close up photos to be taken.



Now, I am curious about this strong enough shock buisness.  Obviously Frank3000 discovered something while I was away to Australia.  The Floats look pretty beefy to me, and I detected no problems or flex on my one ride in Australia.  My 215 pound self should have caused all sorts of flex. And I took it down some nasty descents.  What are the thoughts on the Fox Floats, and what was discovered about the Cane Creeks?  All the bike shops in Oz told me that I had bad ass shocks, and no one said anything about the float beinging too little a shock for the back of the bike.



With all the things above there are pics in the gallery.

[Simon]

ahhhh the strong enough business,
what happened was I was looking for a suitable light weight shock for my 4500,I enquired about the Cloud9 direct with Canecreek who informed me that shock would not be suitable in that length (209mm) and they also would not recommend it as the design of the 4500 would mean the shock would be subjected to lateral loading which this shock is not designed to deal with,its a very light weight shock air sprung and air damped,I believe only Risse and Stratos made shocks that they recommended for use on the K2 carbon frameset,only talking about air shocks not coilovers,
this was a while ago and other manufactures may now make and recommend there air shocks for this bike,but with the flexy s/arm you do need a shock thats capable of dealing with lateral as well as compression loadings.

[onealpha]

Wow!  Thank you so much for your responses.  I ran by my storage today and yanked the rear smartshock from my 4000 frame, came home and disassembled the front end.  I then realized that they were different shocks altogether but thought I might be able to get it to work temporarily until I decided what to do for a replacement. I swapped springs and went to mount.  Yup, it won't fit on the bottom connector.    So, now I have to put everything back and decide what to do for a replacement.  I really want to put the cloud nine on the front, but don't want to be bothered with all the adapters and such.  I think it would be sweet, but I have neither the time or desire for a project like that right now. I just have too much other stuff going on right now and really want to enjoy the bike.  I will most likely pick up a risse for the front once I figuire out where and how to purchase one.  Thanks again, and I will post some photo's of my rides in the near future.  This board has always been a salvation for those of us who cherish our Pro-flex and K2 addictions.

[onealpha]

I stopped by my LBS today to pick up my wheels which I had them rebuild.  While I was there I asked them for a price on a Risse shock for the front.  They made a call to Risse and quoted me $198 which I believe is the retail price.  Does anyone know of a dealer who sells the risse for less than full retail and is not in the state of Florida, US?  I am all for supporting my LBS but considering that in the last three weeks I have spent over $500 in this shop on new parts and labor I was hoping for some kind of discount.  Maybe just enough to compensate for the state sales tax.  Thanks.  

[Matno]

This is from way back (on the old forum), but the guy may still be around. Try emailing him. He used to have great deals on new Stratos shocks, and possibly Risse as well. Based in Portland, Oregon.

Bill Larson
WLarson297@aol.com

Good luck.

Matt

PS
I think $170-180 is the price I've seen before for the Risse Genesis.

[Frankd3000]

I stopped by my LBS today to pick up my wheels which I had them rebuild.  While I was there I asked them for a price on a Risse shock for the front.  They made a call to Risse and quoted me $198 which I believe is the retail price.  Does anyone know of a dealer who sells the risse for less than full retail and is not in the state of Florida, US?  I am all for supporting my LBS but considering that in the last three weeks I have spent over $500 in this shop on new parts and labor I was hoping for some kind of discount.  Maybe just enough to compensate for the state sales tax.  Thanks.  

Call them on it. Yeah, seriously - tell them exactly what you posted. "Hey, look, i'd like to get the Risse shock I asked about, but that's retail pricing. I haven't spent thousands with you guys, but I have been back a few times and to YOU. Can you do a bit better on the price? At least help me out with the taxes please."

It's not begging, it's not being rude or anything of the sort and it shows them that you acknowledge their being and help. Maybe it'll get you somewhere - maybe it won't. Point is you won't know unless you ask. If it doesn't help THIS time then it might help NEXT time with another product.

Another strong point with calling them on it is that it shows them you're not just another guy who doesn't have a clue about what goes on with pricing and bike parts.

Try it - it works..... sometimes. If they're a GOOD LBS then it should work and your relationship with them should grow. If it doesn't then shop around. Also, maybe e-mail/phone Risse and ask for an authroized distributor in your area.

[shovelon]

That Risse shock for the front looks nice. $198 is a pretty good price in my opinion. I can't see how you could go wrong with that price. But how about contacting Risse for another dealer in your area and getting a quote?

Here is your Manitou Swinger recomendation for the rear. For the rear I can't imagine putting anything other than stable platform or SPV airshock on the rear. The compression damping basically underdamped and smooth as silk. In fact, the factory indicates that you have to pressurize the SPV chamber with at least 50 psi as to not bottom out so early possibly causing damage. The threshold valve acts as a semi-compression circut that cuts out when the valve is upset or tripped. So little bobbing, and silky smooth travel on big hits. The best news is that there are lots of used shocks available now. You may have to add an extender though.

With the Risse on the front. A Swinger or 5th element or fox rp3 would be puss, and lite.

My 2 cents.

Terry

[onealpha]

Thanks again for your responses. Actually, I figuire there is a chance that I just got the wrong guy on the wrong day.  I had planned on calling and speaking to the guy who I had dealt with on my wheel rebuild before making any decisions, but the thought crossed my mind that maybe there was a dealer on this board that was from out of state.  I thought maybe I could help contribute to someone here who is a sponsor or dealer who helps by contributing to this board and at the same time break even on the sales tax.  I am an avid Ducati owner and I try to do the same thing with purchases by supporting out of state contributors to my Ducati BBS.  Thanks again for all your advice.