Author Topic: 4500 (Read 5743 times)

Old Proflexer · « **on:** February 18, 2008, 05:44:46 pm »

Took my 4500 for a little spin with some friends (see pic in gallery, not all in the group were in the pic) including a few ladies who were quite good. I've got to admit, I wasn't always the first one up but then again, no where near the last one down - and on several of the long hard, grinding steep fireroad climbs, I had the pleasure of making it to the saddle and had enough time to catch my breath, look back down to see all the others still struggling their way up below and behind me.

Technology has changed a few things in mountain biking - forks, shocks etc. have come a long way in the last 10-15 years. If the 4500's has a better rear shock when originally distributed, I believe they'd still be making them. I go down some stuff with these guys that I'd never do with a crosslink - the Psylo SL that I tore apart, painted and have kept going works just fine. I don't need a $1000 fork. I do keep the crosslink on the other 4500 and use for faster, flatter runs - not however for a lot of steep climbing or descents. If technology had been a little further along and/or the manufacturer of our frames were a little more open at the time to supplying some higher end forks for use with the frames, again, they may still be making them. I know, the cost to build the carbons and the return on the investment probably was eating into their profits.

My point is, one does not need the latest and greatest in technology to do well and/or better than most. Some simple upgrades to our 'antiques' will keep you running out in front of the pack or just having a good old time. You old timers are probably sick of me moaning about my parting with my 856 years ago, and I still wish I'd have kept it. If you have a 700, 800, 900 series frame, keep it going!!!! For a nomimal sum, compared to buying a new bike, they are as good as anything out there. Upgrade the shocks if you can but I got to tell you, a lot of people still sit and stare at my carbon crosslinks. The basic 2.6 to 2.7 to 1 XC rear end ratio hasnt' changed much over time and if they have to sit on the seat that much to take advantage of the ratio, maybe they should pull their seat and post off their bikes, go for a few short rides and spend more time on their pedals with their weight balanced over their pedals. That'll build the legs up. I think we'll all learned that disc brakes can be put on most anything with a little ingenuity - and it's good to share those how to's and experiences.

Everybody on this ride had a Specialized FSR Enduro, Santa Cruz Blur, Intense, super dooper Fox shocks, Epic, SRAM ad nauseum and most of these guys can't fix a flat tire. Something needs tuning, they take it to a bike shop. One guy, not in the pic, had one of those $4000 super shiney whiz bang latest and greatest something or others and couldn't make it up the first set of switchbacks so he turned around and went back down - he couldn't unlock his shoes from his pedals and didn't know what to do.

Money will but that for you but are you doing yourself any favors?

OK, I'm rambling, back to my point, I had the oldest, dirtiest beatup POC there, and was proud of it.
It's about the engine.

Never be jealous of another bike even the newer ones, all those others are just different, not necessarily better.
Frame and personal scars show character and can cause concern for those that have never ventured far enough out of their comfort zone to earn them.

OP

Mr752 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 18, 2008, 06:10:42 pm »

Well said OP!
I was reading basically the same thing on a RETROBIKE thread earlier, pointing out the way we are perceived by the next generation when we are seen out and about on our 8-15 year old bikes.
The technology behind the Proflex/K2 brand was of sound engineering principle that was proven on the world stage and is still worthy enough to be competetive today.
Your other point is also spot on, "If you aint got the legs or the engine, you aint gonna make it to the top", or even back down no matter how many 'Greenbacks' you payed for your machine.
Top Quality Mr Old Proflexer.

Mr752

kiwi · « **Reply #2 on:** February 19, 2008, 02:27:04 am »

What happened OP,Bob the lung has had you in oxygen debt again hasnt he....

Well siad mate...I think there are an awfu lot of people who have their self esteem tied up in the latest and greatest....Take the pedal guy...is he so proud he cant even ask for some help????Something doesnt quite work so he gives up and goes home....prolly have new Bike/pedal/shoes next time.

timboiow · « **Reply #3 on:** February 19, 2008, 05:36:39 am »

I'm afraid its magpie syndrome in action "shiny thing must have....." (or it could be jelousy on my part in not being able to afford these things :-). My trusty 857 seems to do i need it do and whilst the newer bikes have evolved and overcome some problems(discs remove the need to keep replacing rims and let the wheels collect more mud before they cease going round, and clipless pedals made toeclips obsolete) the mud on my trials looks just like the stuff i have riden through for years so why do i need to change ? If there ws a leg/lung upgrade available that would make more sense.
The guy with the shoes may just have been embarassed - like any mountain bike would take the michael for cleats being stuck in the pedal (stop it...you know its funny and even if was you, you'd laugh afterwards....go on admit it!!). Isn't there some satisfaction from passing these "better" bikes on a good bit of trail.
Cheers
Timbo

Old Proflexer · « **Reply #4 on:** February 19, 2008, 12:22:03 pm »

I dusted the lung on the first hard climb (that's him standing next to me)

but he got me on the long slow single track grind out of the last canyon when I got behind one of the ladies

. . . . really didn't mind the view tho'

funny how my 8 speed setup always seems to hit the gears while the newer 9's are clicking and grinding and skipping when they get a little dirty.

Tel · « **Reply #5 on:** February 19, 2008, 01:08:39 pm »

Do you know OP I had the same thing this sunday, quite a few people looking at Mrs Tels 857 and my XPX giving us comments about old school cool etc. As if I`m riding it for a laugh or dont ride enough to buy some new fangled tangle of metal, but then when the ride starts the new bikes are completely unable to clean the first really steep and schetchy climb on the singletrack. I`m no great rider but my XPX just seems to find grip on the really steep lose stuff that leaves the newer full suss riders diving off and pushing, its a shame I`ve got a big yellow streak up my back when it comes to the down hill stuff as this is the only way they can just about justify their latest 6" all mountain 5 minuite wonder bikes.
Part with my Proflex, haha that will be the day. Keep it going, they always look at our bikes differently at the end of the ride.
Cheers mate, Tel.

shovelon · « **Reply #6 on:** February 20, 2008, 09:59:40 am »

People think I am crazy, but the best bikes are the simplest. It does not hurt that my K2/Proflexes are just drop dead gorgeous(only a mother can love).

They were ahead of their time performing just as they were designed. Now we can add SPV and inertia damping as they have. But ours work well.

Some of the latest offerings offer 4 bar linkage, but have you noticed that they are abandoning the horst link, making up for it with SPV? Without the horst link, our bikes just jumped ahead of the pack, and maybe just behind the DW link(over complicated and heavy).

Don't make 'em like they used to.

Terry

keith · « **Reply #7 on:** February 20, 2008, 02:09:19 pm »

I hate linkage systems and wonder how some of them work at all,keep it simple one pivot one shock,works for me

Luke · « **Reply #8 on:** February 21, 2008, 07:31:08 am »

Hi
I’m lucky to live in an area where natural selection prevails. AGNIs don’t last long here, either they learn VERY quickly or they break limbs. It’s a limestone (and steep) area so the water drains off fast and there’s not much soft stuff (mud) to fall on
Brake fluid boiling 10k long single track descents and grinding 2 hour climbs tend to mean that the poseurs stay in the valleys.
Suits me fine.

Interestingly during periods of illness/family constraint/work induced fitness loss I catch myself eyeing up the fancy shiny tuning bling in the bike shops. When I get back to riding it’s quickly forgotten though.

Suspension doesn’t need to evolve much more; the difference between bike suspension and car suspension is that the big guys in the bike industry managed to patent the most important setups (the ones that work)
A lot of this pushrod-lever-virtual-wiggle-anti bob-fangled tomfoolery is to get around the patents, I have a friend who works for Renault Sport, who were consulted by Giant in 2003 to develop a new rear sus which avoids all the patents out there; he said it was hard work (IMHO they failed)
The 5500/OZ etc. got it right: one pivot in the right place, direct shock. Pity the materials weren’t available at the time. That floppy, heavy thermoplastic carbon meant that a bike design with world beating potential was limited by the material.
So who owns the molds? Remaking that frame with lightweight materials would be fantastic.

I’m always amused by the whole SPV/ProPedal gizmo business: back in the day suspension fettlers worked hard to get rid of this phenomenon; it was called STICTION. Now you pay more to have it!
And it is necessary for bikes that haven’t got the pivotery right, they compensate in the shock.
So instead of buying the SPV/ProPedal linked pushrod farm gate because they expect it to be the same as a hardtail, I (we) have learned to ride a good full suspension bike correctly and get the most out of it.

I don’t know how you guys on the alloy bikes manage to make those frames last so long; mine never made it through a year.

Happy trails
Luke

AGNI = All the Gear No Idea

purple gerbil · « **Reply #9 on:** February 21, 2008, 12:31:19 pm »

you can put pivots and shocks where you want but theres only so many ways that work properly.
for instance gt lts & specialised fsr share the same patent. gt bought it and made theres plusher and better than on the fsr.
kona/k2/giant there all the same. why do all car suspension look the same? thats because it works. and the design is the same
as those bikes mentioned above. pro-flex got it right but takeover by k2 ruined it and have now only just realised it and are
going back to that basic design that put them at the top of the market all those years ago.

signalMTB · « **Reply #10 on:** February 21, 2008, 01:24:10 pm »

This topic approaches something I wondered for some time now...

what happened to the Pro-Flex / K2 4000 ish single pivot swingarm design for FS bikes? Why did they stop making it? Is there something, technically speaking, that this design just doesn't perform well? Other than maybe loosing some braking under suspension load or something like that, the Pro-Flex design is correlary to that of a motorcycle, and they haven't changed them. Single pivot, angular deflected force onto the seat stay...maybe a little heavy, but mine is 10 years old and going strong.

purple gerbil · « **Reply #11 on:** February 21, 2008, 01:55:01 pm »

pivots depend on what there gonna be used for.d/h can go anywhere. lower the better to give a more active suspension and plusher travel.
xc you need to get just right (pro-flex) so you can still get active sus but no bobbing about which is no good on a good climb.
if a pivot is above the b/b then you can get the axle and b/b to pull together creating lockout great for xc.
motorbikes however aint leg powered so it aint that crucial. but you dont want that back end bobbin with all that torque.
checkout motorcross bikes how there back ends digg in. todays market is about d/h so bikes follow fashion.but i think xc is gonna come back in a big way and soon!

kiwi · « **Reply #12 on:** February 22, 2008, 12:07:26 am »

agreed..we have all said it before,a modern proflex with bearings,dics,and modern suspension(witha tweaked crosslink off course) would be THE business....

kiwi · « **Reply #13 on:** February 22, 2008, 12:09:18 am »

Quote from: Luke on February 21, 2008, 07:31:08 am

I don’t know how you guys on the alloy bikes manage to make those frames last so long; mine never made it through a year.

Happy trails
Luke

AGNI = All the Gear No Idea

because compared to your rides i ride in a constant almost trials type jungle....

Carbon_Angus · « **Reply #14 on:** February 26, 2008, 12:26:08 pm »

i always found the x-links to be best when climbing, were your psylo's dialed down?

the bikes are still a very cool ride

and never underestimated the "motor" OP even at your age!

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Author Topic: 4500 (Read 5743 times)