Author Topic: Shock length for Carbon (and all?)? (Read 5872 times)

jazclrint · « **Reply #15 on:** May 08, 2005, 04:42:21 pm »

Oh, and a quick note about spring rates, from what little I know. If you have a spring, and you tighten it to set sag, you're not really changing its rate, although I'm sure it is affected. What you are doing is setting the preload, which is the force needed to get the spring to start compressing. That's why bigger and smaller guys need different spring rates, because just cranking the preload down isn't going to compensate for your weight alone. The rate at which it compresses is a combination of spring rate and compression dampening. Also prgressive springs SUCK on motorcycles (atleast fast ones). Linear is the way to go. But the guy who got a spring fork instead of air fork already knows that.

Anyway, Air is different because it is progressive and because what you set the preload to will effect the spring rate, as you said. But that's when you just have to trust that Cane Creek did their home work. Good Luck! ; ) Just kidding. I mean, they don't have different shocks for different weight people. Which tells me there is still a one size fits all mentality to Air shocks. Hense the AVA, and why it is like having an almost infinate amount of springs at the stroke of a pump.

Frankd3000 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 08, 2005, 04:47:49 pm »

HAHAha! I know what sag represents. I've tinkered enough with suspension. I was just saying that when full suspension was in it's infancy in the '90's people never discussed setting up shocks for xx"/mm of sag. Suspension was never looked upon with such "complexity". People were just happy to have FS in the first place. Then everyone started getting ... bah, I won't say it. It's not proper.

Regardless, the industry hasn't changed in the past 10 years. Lies, lies, lies - just for a sale.

About the concern - correct. I also didn't realize that you had such a small difference between the two. A couple of millimeters isn't going to hurt. Sag is one of those things that falls in the "personal preference" area for me. I might have to try the "more sag" thing with my set-up. I've picked up enough extra travel that i'll give it a try.

Worry about your FINALS! Then play with this stuff. Trust me.

jazclrint · « **Reply #17 on:** May 09, 2005, 03:12:50 am »

Oh, trust me, I'm WORRIED about finals. This was just a kind of a much needed distraction. Also I'd like to make an appology. In my first post, that didn't get through, I put the "you probably know all this already, but just for clarification and for those who might not, here's what I know" disclaimer. Well, I'm a little confused because my 2000 I used to have, and the 5500 I have now have specific sag meausrements right in the owners manual. But most of my sag obsession comes from setting up my Motorcycle. But like I said that AVA gives me a big advantage. I can take a little preload out and dial up the spring rate to compensate. So nana-a-bobo! ; )
Here's a little oddity though. Don't Dirt bike/MotoX/SuperX/Enduro guys run a ton of sag? They have 8"+ of travel, but don't they set up like 1/3 of their travel in just sag? I know Street bikes run about 1/4 or less of sag. But we're on supposedly smooth pavement. It seems like XC Mt bikes seem to run more like street bikes than MotoXers. I mean, 8mm of sag in the rear on a 5500? That's nothing. And I know a lot of XC racers seem to like their bikes really stiff. There is enough meat in my rear adapter where I could put another hole 5mm above what I have now and switch between the 2 to see the difference. I'm such a geek! ; ) Did I say that I redesigned the adapters to give me exactly, or within 0.02mm, the stock shock length/ride height? But it looks like I'll have a hole made. My machinist said he'd do mods for free. I can't wait until Thursday when I put this together to see how it all fits. I too used to be happy with just an FS bike. Until one day I took the time to set it up right, and felt what a difference it made. But the biggest difference I felt was on my motorcycle when I rebuilt my forks myself, adding rebound and preload adjustability, and slapped on a built for me 4 way adjustable Penske rear shock. I gained 10% cornering speed. And I was already doing over 80 through the local twisties. What I am going to do is get the Fox's to fit. Then I'm going to put the Smarts back on and really dial them in the best I can, and then put the Fox's back on and dial them in, just to see the real difference. And I remember the old Mag 21s. I was in High school then! ; )
Later,

shovelon · « **Reply #18 on:** May 09, 2005, 03:52:57 am »

Sag, my obsession.

The way I determine sag is to find the sweet spot for the swingarm pivot location on my Oz. If I run little sag I get reverse bob(lifting of the frame beyond semi lockout). If I have too much sag I get bobbing(plunging of the frame blowing through semi lockout).

About 10 mm is perfect for my 8.3 i2i air shock. And about 20 mm for my 8.5 i2i coil shock. Both shocks are SPV by the way preventing plunging anyway, but I don't want the unneccessary(?) swingarm extention under power.

I am more concerned about climbing efficiency than high speed tire contact on descents(cause I am a scardycat, and need the travel for big hits).

Terry

Frankd3000 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 12, 2005, 01:53:20 pm »

(teeheehee) NANA indeed.

"You kids and your fancy contraptions"

I don't know much about motorcycles, but i'd think that the difference between two horsepower and 100+ would make up some difference between sag determination. That and speed. Oh, and weight.

Just for comparison's sake - so far i've dialed-in my C9's adjusting the air pressure for max. travel without bottoming out, then using the comp. and rebound adjustments for their respective attributes in how I like my suspension to behave. I know it's "not right", but it's working for now. I haven't measured the front or rear sag yet, but I know I have at least 5mm front and 8 in the rear. Funny, almost sounds nearly, sorta, almost-kinda right.

I'll have to try what you guys are talking about and see how it compares. Definetly sounds like it's worth it for the extension attributes.

jazclrint · « **Reply #20 on:** May 16, 2005, 04:31:37 pm »

Hey if you know what you like that's half the battle, especially when it comes to suspension. As an update I have not done anything yet. I found some serious design flaws and have to have new parts made. No one's fault but my own. Finals went ok, and Drill weekend sucked, and I have so much to do. I've been trying to get my VFR (my street bike) running, where as soon as I fix one thing another thing breaks. So I've just been too busy to put the Pro-Flex back together, and now I need new parts made. Oh well, I'll keep you all updated.

jazclrint · « **Reply #21 on:** May 24, 2005, 05:49:59 pm »

I thought I'd do a little update. I graduated with My Assoc in Jazz performance, my VFR is "grounded" due to burnt wires, I leave for Perth, Australia on Sunday, and I'm climbing the walls because the weather has been miserable and I can't get out on my road bike, since its the only 2 wheeled vehicle I have that works, or isn't in peices.

Any way, I finally got bolts the other day and fitted the MULA lite. It needed some trimming on the botton to clear the rebound dial. And more on the port side to clear the air valve. I am also having the top L-shaped bracket thing trimmed to make room for the valve also. I had very little room to posision the shock perfectly, and I still don't know if I guessed right because of the clearence issues I havn'e been able to fit it. Also, I could not simply drill a hole 5mm up, in the rear adapter because there wasn't enough room. And I checked, and it was way too heavy, and the frame was interfearing with getting the holes lined up. So I refined the design and am having it made. I went with the 5mm longer design so I can run more sag. It should be much lighter, and hopefully no clearence issues, but any would be easily fixed. That and I get to use the ti bolts that came with the frame that mount the shocks. No 6 billion bolts like the MULA lite. The Machinist said all should be ready Thursday. Hopefully I'll have time to fit stuff before I leave. I'll have to do all my testing in Perth. But my freind has a way better camera than I do so it may be a good thing. I'll keep you all posted.

jazclrint · « **Reply #22 on:** May 26, 2005, 05:07:14 pm »

EUREEKA! I got my redesigned and modded parts back, and everything works! I have only fitted everything. I have to have a countersink drilled on that top L brace to allow full travel, and the lockout levers need to be shortened, but that's nothing. And the best part, everything is light. But I'll be needing some ti bolts in the future. ; ) The rear adapter got WAY smaller, but that's good because the first version weighed a ton. I will not have a ride review until I get to Australia. I also got the Paul brakes put on (I had to get an o-ring). The night would have been complete if I hadn't realized I had bought the wrong XTR FD, again! Last time I got the wrong diameter, and this time it is top pull only. Grrrrrrr. [smiley=furious.gif] And then I discovered my camera's battery is toast! [smiley=dead.gif] Which really is a shame because I think they look soooo cool. But you guys will get good pics when I get to Australia. I have to rip everything apart anyway to lube it. Speaking of which, what do you guys recommend for lube on suspension pivots?
Later,

Matno · « **Reply #23 on:** May 27, 2005, 02:47:59 am »

The main pivot should get some plain old bearing grease - I like Phil Wood grease (but mostly just because I've been using the same big tube of it for several years now...) It works like a charm. I've heard people say positive things about "marine" grease (for boats). Not sure if it's really all that different...

The other "pivots" (i.e. the shock bushings) should NOT be lubed at all. It will only attract dirt where it's not supposed to be.

Simon · « **Reply #24 on:** May 27, 2005, 09:38:30 am »

I use on pivots
Finish Line Premium Grease,
ideal for high and low speed bearings and bushes
waterproof as well,
as Matno says don't lube shock pivot bushes
there will be a negative reaction between the
DU bush (durillium coating) and the lubricant,
the bush will be destroyed in no time,
DU bushes are self lubricating anyway,
Simon.

shovelon · « **Reply #25 on:** June 05, 2005, 05:12:28 am »

I am baffled.

What is durillium coating? Is it on the plastic strut bushings? Or on the metal inserts? I can agree that grease atracts dirt, which can be bad.

Is it really no maintainance?

Terry

Simon · « **Reply #26 on:** June 05, 2005, 05:26:59 am »

Quote

I am baffled.

What is durillium coating? Is it on the plastic strut bushings? Or on the metal inserts? I can agree that grease atracts dirt, which can be bad.

Is it really no maintainance?

Terry

Its the black/dark grey coating or red in the case of Fox that you usually find on the inside of most damper eye pivot bushes,not on strut bushes.
Simon

jazclrint · « **Reply #27 on:** August 18, 2005, 08:20:50 am »

Hey all. Well I never got any pics of the parts. Just acopule of pics from the 20 mile Mt. Bike ride I did in Australia. The shocks worked AWSOME! I put on the Paul brakes, replaced my brass pipe/steel clamp/SRAM FD set up with an XT FD, and the new Fox Float RL shock setup with the MULA lite and rear adapter that I designed, and I went from 26.75 lbs to 24.25 LBS!!!!! The rear brake wasn't working as well as I thought it should, and the FD needs tweaking, but the shock were a big improvement in the climbs, and a miracle on the desents. I'll see if my freind can take some close ups of the shock set up. I'll also try to find the design plans and scan them so I can post them. Thanks for all the help guys!

Frankd3000 · « **Reply #28 on:** August 18, 2005, 12:59:09 pm »

BUH?!?! HOW'S AUSTRALIA?

?? (but put it in another thread, eh)

Glad to hear you got it working. You'll get the FD working soon, i'm sure.

jazclrint · « **Reply #29 on:** August 18, 2005, 01:19:32 pm »

The XT was fine. Just needed tweeking. It seems I had the same problem with my SRAM when I first put it on. But both bikes (I took my raod bike too) are still in Australia where I was worried about funds. But I may be going back. So I don't have it with me.

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Author Topic: Shock length for Carbon (and all?)? (Read 5872 times)