K2 / Proflex Riders Group
General => Tech Forum => Topic started by: serviceguy on July 13, 2016, 02:29:27 pm
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I feel the urge to jump back on a MTB after many years of inactivity. I've always liked Proflex bikes but I could never afford one back in the old country (Italy, where I rode a Viner), now I find myself in a position were I can't justify the money for a new FS bikes but I do want one so I am entertaining the idea of sourcing one of these old girls! I've found a K2 5000 for sale but I am not sure what the market value of these bikes is nowadays so I would greatly appreciate some hint with regard to that.
Also, I know it was tricky to size these bikes but what would a 20" center crank to top seat tube correspond to as in Small, Medium, large or XLarge ? And most important, how would it fit a 5'11" guy or regular build (my legs are not too long nor too short for my height).
I can rarely leave my toys as they come, so as soon as I source a 5000 or 4000 a disk upgrade is going to be in order...
Thanks a lot for the space, looking forward to discuss my 'new to me' bike project in here!
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There is no uniform market value. The market is too small. It's worth whatever you're willing to pay.
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in other proflex models 20 is about as big as they come ,way big.You better try it it may be a smidgen big
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Thanks for the feedback.
Unfortunately when I am fixating on something I end up paying too much, at least according to my wife...I did notice there isn't much of a market for these bikes. I didn't see too many around even when they were new, but again was in Italy back than.
From the pics in the ad it looks like the top tube and the down tube almost touch at the head tube, and I believe the Way Big size had quite a gap between the two of them. That and the fact the seller says at 6'2" the frame is a bit small for him makes me think it's a Large and it should fit me at 5'11"...I can't test it, it's on the other side of the country.
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Actually found an expired (sigh) ebay auction for a frame that lists the size as Large and the distance between the center of BB and top of seat tube being 20" 1/4 so at 20" it should be a Large.
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It could be a medium or a large. The measurement you are referring to is the same on a large and medium size frame. You need to measure the length of the top tube from center seat tube to center head tube. This is the only measurement that differs between a medium and large.
Medium top tube length = 554mm
Large top tube length =579mm
I'm 6'2" and I ride a large 4000/5000. To me it feels perfect. I have a medium 957 but it never feels right. I've put an extra long stem to compensate for the shorter top tube. I have never tried a waybig ( x large) but I would think a slightly too big frame would be less of a problem than a too small. The large was recommended to me when I bought mine new from the shop in 1998.
I would say you need a large.
Price wise a 5000 sells from £50 - £250. It really depends on condition, spec and how much you want it! You don't see 5000's for sale very often so it's really how much or how little you are willing to pay.
Hope this helps
Chris
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Thanks for the reply Spokes!
I've actually located a closer to me 4000 in size Large (even though the price is about $100 higher than what you mentioned), the 5000 that I located in Seattle at $550+shipping sounds a little too much for an almost 20 years old bike, I am still waiting on the dude to get back to me. I also have some reservation on the CF front suspensions being 18 years old, the aluminum ones on the 4000 should be easier to check for stress cracks and weldable if needed. The rear, well, you can just hope. Sure enough being able to inspect it in person makes it a whole lot easier.
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Whatever works best for you is fine but I wouldn't have any issues with the carbon forks or swingarm used on these bikes. They were made of a superb quality and don't break. They really are over engineered in a good way. I've only ever seen one swingarm cracked and the guy must have done something really stupid to have caused it. They just don't break.
The main thing to check is for any wear in the top and bottom links on the forks. People don't strip and re-lube them as often as they need and it wears the nylon bushes. If left too long it wears the spindle also. A rebuild kit can still be bought for the bushes but if the spindle is worn you need a spare set of forks as spares.
The same with the rear, check for side play. There shouldn't be any play in the suspension at all, just smooth travel.
Chris
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Again, thanks! All good info to keep in mind when checking a bike. Well, if I really like the 4000 I may keep an eye out for the 5000 as well...now, if the guy bothers to answer my e-mail so i can go check out the bike that would be great. I start having a feeling he's just going to flake on me. We'll see.
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As far as I am aware there is no material difference between a 4000 and a 5000 is there? (anyone?) it was merely a groupset difference and maybe forks and shocks, so really I'd say it's down to size and colour preference, you should even entertain other models like the Evo's and "Monkeys" which were 4000/5000 style bikes however without the CF rear end but were usually disc ready.
I'd agree about the CF forks, tough as old boots unless crashed, and would also stress the pivot maintenance importance.
Good Luck!
Col.
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I'd say the main noticeable difference is that the standard 4000 has ELT - aluminium forks and the 5000 has CS - carbon. As Col says the group set is higher on the 5000 also. But here's the biggy ( maybe!) I always thought the 5000 was a different grade aluminium to the 4000 and possibly made in-house aka 957. Callum of RDS who spoke to people from the factory always said the team race bikes were base on the 5000 not the 4000. Is the 5000 a higher grade of aliuminium or maybe more procicly built compared to the mass produced 4000.
My 4000 has a 'Made in Taiwan' sticker on the bb but my 5000 hasn't. I've owned the 4000 from new and I bought the 5000 last year as a New old stock frame. It's brand new and never been built up. All stickers are original. There are some subtle differences compared with my 4000 also. Seat tube height is 5mm shorter, cable guides are different shape and the welding is to different standard.
The last thing is the frame numbers.
My 4000 is stamped with a small punch starting with H8G00.... Where as my 5000 is stamped with a large punch starting with PF0099...
My 856's start with H5E and H6E. My 857 starts with H7E. All these are made in Taiwan. M My 955 starts with AO44 and my 957 starts with KU6G.... Both were made in house and have larger hand stamped numbers. So it seems right to me that the 5000 was also made in house as its number starts PF0099.
Phew that turned into a long one!
A quick bit of digging and I've found the 4000 frame listed as 7005 grade aluminium and the 5000 frame listed as 7005 'elite' grade. So the 5000 is a higher spec frame but in all honesty would you really be able to tell the difference?
Chris
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Well, I'm now the proud owner of a K2 4000...I ended up overpaying for what it is, as I gave it a visual inspection that turned out to be less than accurate as I did concentrate on the frame pivot (looks good) and cross link (looks good too) and complete ignored the mangled front derailleur! I did not ride the bike as I assumed it would need a tune up anyway, I did not expect it would need it that bad. I am hoping to bend the cage back in shape for now and than source either a good used or NOS unit from ebay. I did not notice any crack on the swing arms but the metal plate that holds the rear derailleur seems bent. I full tearing apart is in order soon. So far I've only located the bearing kit for the front fork RK006 bearing kit on ebay, I did a little research and I guess I should source everything I can find for the smart shock as well (RK015, RK016, RK018 and RK019). The seal kit RK004 seems not be available anymore. Any clue where I could locate it and if there's any other kit I may be after?
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This should be the spec.
http://www.bikepedia.com/QuickBike/BikeSpecs.aspx?year=1999&brand=K2&model=4000 (http://www.bikepedia.com/QuickBike/BikeSpecs.aspx?year=1999&brand=K2&model=4000)
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I could not leave it alone, back to the garage for more dreadful discoveries...the rear derailleur hanger is bent, how the impact that bent it did not bend the actual fork aluminum terminal is beyond me but I do not complain. 2 spares have been ordered from China so that should be taken care of. The rear shock seems to be bent as well, the spring is actually rubbing the reservoir, that seems the most expensive part unless I find a used, good stock replacement unit. Finally (but I haven't tackled the front fork yet) the front derailleur is broken, actually looks chewed by the chain and one of the leverage hinges has broken off, obviously that is beyond repair...
Off to the classifieds it is, I guess!
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Thanks for the reference, mine is actually a 1998 (red, LX front derailleur).
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Took a guess and missed it by a year. Here is the 1998 spec then.
http://www.bikepedia.com/QuickBike/BikeSpecs.aspx?year=1998&brand=K2&model=ProFlex+4000 (http://www.bikepedia.com/QuickBike/BikeSpecs.aspx?year=1998&brand=K2&model=ProFlex+4000)
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I have a used front XTR FD-M961 that will fit. Yours for the cost of postage if you are interested.
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Interested for sure. PayPal Ok ? If so please send me a PM with your PP address and the price shipped. Top Swing/Bottom pull 31.8, correct ? Thank you!
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As expected once almost all of the parts I needed arrived, I start preparing the frame for reassembly...and found a big dent on the right side of the down tube, right under the 'K' of 'K2'...I think I can actually feel the material flex if I push it with my finger, but it could be just my imagination. Trying to find a TIG welder or a frame repair shop that would tackle the dent and fix it (the frame is straight otherwise, the damage to the down tube does not seem to affect the structure of the frame), I found some info on aluminum brazing rods that apparently are being used even for structural repair on aluminum parts (Hobart sells them among others). Is this a common practice and could actually help my case? The area to be addressed will have to be heated up to 700F deg in order for the rod to melt and bond to the metal so metal expansion would be a concern there. Any input would be appreciated.
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As expected once almost all of the parts I needed arrived, I start preparing the frame for reassembly...and found a big dent on the right side of the down tube, right under the 'K' of 'K2'...I think I can actually feel the material flex if I push it with my finger, but it could be just my imagination. Trying to find a TIG welder or a frame repair shop that would tackle the dent and fix it (the frame is straight otherwise, the damage to the down tube does not seem to affect the structure of the frame), I found some info on aluminum brazing rods that apparently are being used even for structural repair on aluminum parts (Hobart sells them among others). Is this a common practice and could actually help my case? The area to be addressed will have to be heated up to 700F deg in order for the rod to melt and bond to the metal so metal expansion would be a concern there. Any input would be appreciated.
Need pictures. It may be fine as is.
That brazing rod is a bandaid at best. You would be better off filling with Labmetal epoxy to add rigidity and then paint. But it may be fine. I tig weld, but if it were mine I would consider leaving it. The frame is made from 7005 alloy and very forgiving to quick welding. I would only weld it if it were cracked.
Terry
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I think I'll leave as it is for the time being. I stopped by a local reputable shop and the guy also confirmed it's not affecting the frame rigidity. Thanks for the feedback.
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That's one of the reasons I'm not a big fan of the Girvin dual-crown forks, btw. They have an annoying tendency to dent the top-tube in crashes. Amazingly, mine didn't, but that was pure luck. The dents might be cosmetic, but I still dislike them.
Every time I think about endo-ing over the hood of that car I hit back in college, I'm amazed the steertube welds didn't fail on the spot. I hit hard enough to launch myself clear over the car, and the bike clear over *me*. (which was good, because it would've hurt like hell if the bike had landed on me.) Good stuff these bikes are made of.
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Actually this dent is way past the reach of the fork tubes.
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How about a Girvin Pro-Flex mod 953? I just posted mine on eBay.
Pictures http://www.fototime.com/users/jtsd38@gmail.com/Girvin%20PRO-FLEX%20Model%20953%20Mtn.%20Bike%20%20Vintage%20-%20Collector%201993%20 (http://www.fototime.com/users/jtsd38@gmail.com/Girvin%20PRO-FLEX%20Model%20953%20Mtn.%20Bike%20%20Vintage%20-%20Collector%201993%20)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/172297162011?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/172297162011?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649)
jtsd38@gmail.com is my email if anyone wants more info. I live in central Oregon, USA
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Joe, beautiful bike but not what I had in mind. I was outbid on both amint OZ large frame and an almost complete crossling fork on ebay, they both would have been perfect to my end, oh well! I start being fond of my dented 4000 frame anyway...
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...and now I've finally got a 5000 frame from an e-bay seller! This was a little bit of a gamble, from the seller measurements it did sound like a medium frame, once I got it the measurements are matching exactly my large 4000...great, now I have to build this frame too!
The hoarding disease is coming out really bad, I also have a small 857 small frame (with the swing arm and rear shock only) and a Noleen Crosslink parts only fork incoming. I am basically stocking up parts waiting for a good 957 large frame coming around for the ultimate Proflex retro build.
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Wouldn't the ultimate Proflex retro build be a 956 LE? :-P
- Doug
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Or an OzM Superlight?
http://idriders.com/proflex/smf/MGalleryItem.php?id=605 (http://idriders.com/proflex/smf/MGalleryItem.php?id=605)
<GRIN>
Col.
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Isn't that basically a 5500c in US parlance? The ultimate K2 production ride, yes, but a bike that had full production levels. Weren't there only a hundred or so 956LEs?
- Doug :-)
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I gravitate more toward the XX7 proflex series and the K2 4000/4500/5000/5500/OzM/OzX (with the pivot in fornt of the BB to be clear). To me the 957 is still the perfect proflex, but sellers are asking not-so-small fortunes for one.
The 857 frame never got to my door, the seller flaked and i got the money back.
I'm slowly collecting parts to be able and build the 5000 and possibly acquiring a carbon frame (either 4500/5500 or OzM/OzX in size large) but the keyword being 'cheap' it's not that easy, as most seller want to sell their 'time capsule' bike fully built for a small fortune. I just can't justify spending $1500+ on a 20 years old bike that will never increase its value.
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Yeah, I know whatcha mean. There were a surprising number of carbon framed listings on eBay last week...did you see those? I wonder if a well-timed "Make an Offer" could be a winner. They were complete bikes, but if the build didn't match your wishes you could always sell off the parts. I'll keep an eye out on Craigslist and let you know if anything pops up in my area (Wash DC metro area). When Proflexes pop up there they go for a song...I nabbed a like-new 856 a few years ago for $200 and one in rougher shape but with some great components for $100.
- Doug :-)
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Just checked, found a 4000:
https://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/bik/d/mountain-bike-spd-dual/6241571193.html
Let me know if you want to go have a look at it.
- Doug
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Just saw this in the San Fran area...if you're not interested, maybe post it to the Buy/Sell list...but wanted to give the OP first shot at it:
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bik/6230205038.html
You may have seen this ridiculousness in Michigan:
https://annarbor.craigslist.org/bik/6188730785.html
- Doug
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Thanks for the links. They do pop out every now and then, it's like in waves, once one sells then you see a few more coming up for sale...
I actually just bought a carbon crosslink off ebay and I am trying to source a swingarm in Canada...
I won't buy a complete bike unless it is really cheap, I've already 3 frames (4000, 5000 and Evo Bumpy Monkey). The house renovation has gone out of control (both in cost and time), rent + morgage at the same time plus double utilities are draining the bank account pretty fast, not to mention that the septic tank pump died on us after 25 years of service (no, we were not lucky, we bought the house in January).
I did contact the guy in Ann Arbor, it was a little bit of a surreal exchange...he will not take less the $1500 for the 5500...not happening.
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You need a 4000/5000 swingarm? I may have one myself...let me know.
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Waiting on a reply form Canada about shipping, what would you ask for it and what are the conditions ? You don't happen to have a 857/957 swingarm by any chance?
And here we go again...it's a disease!
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Hahaha :-)
Actually, I'm almost certain that I have an 857/957 swingarm, because one came with the 956LE parts that I bought from Terry (I opted to use the early/prototype X57 swingarm that was proper for the frame with the bike I built up)...so yes, I should have one of those. Let me look tonight (and check the condition) and I'll let you know.
Where are you located? I'm just outside of DC in northern VA, USA.
- Doug :-)
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Clifton, NJ.
Soon relocating to Ringwood, NJ (but that depends on the contractor mood...) or...
Florence, Italy or...
Somerset, UK
It's all depending on the US Immigration appreciation of my 30+ years IT experience and if that were not to be the case on job availability in Italy / UK
Let's talk about taking control of your own life!
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Hahaha, that's awesome! Hopefully you get one of the better locations (no ding on NJ, though). We actually head through NJ pretty often as my inlaws live in Rockland County, NY (just inside NY from NJ), so perhaps I can save you some cash on shipping by just meeting up. I'll le you know what I find at home this evening.
- Doug
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Needless to say I'd would prefer to stay in NJ by a long shot! I love this country even though I wasn't born here, and I have lived here for more than 10 years now, always legally if I may add.
Ringwood is actually really beautiful, a little bit of a commute from where I work (Secaucus, basically a transportation hub for NYC) but worth it in my opinion. If you stop by you may have a chance to ride some of the most beautiful trail in the NE (Ringwood Park Trail System).
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OK, I can now confidently report that this X57 swingarm is really, really nice. Decals are like-new, no dings or major scratches, and the rear cable housing ferrule is in place (sometimes it's broken off). Has all the bushings installed, but the only downside is that there's no derailleur hanger. Drop me an email at dougbrashear@yahoo.com and I'll send the pics I just took on my phone.
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If you still need a hanger send a PM. I have a few in k2 packaging.
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I am good, I bought a few spares a few months ago.
Is the picture in your signature your bike? I am aiming for pretty much the same, any issue with the X57 swingarm fitting on a k2 4000/5000 frame?
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That's the ONE thing I wanted to try before I sold my 5500 frame. I didn't have an aluminum EVO 4K or 5K to try either.
I think the bearing placement for the swingarm is slightly different on mine (a wee bit higher on the down tube). The frame in the picture is a waybig.
I'll get a better pic of the bike. Here's the 1998 EVO frame
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Apologize for dirt and grease. You will need to look at your 5K and see if different.
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Thanks for the close up pic. Visually they look the same. Spacing side to side appears to be the same. My 5000 is only a frame as of now so the test should be pretty easy. Hard to judge the pivot placement from the pictures, in addition to yours being a way big frame and mine is a large, different chain ring specs may be deceiving. So your bike was designed like that ? I thought it was either a frankensteined hybrid or a WC replica.
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When I was more active here there was a 'heads-up' craigslist post of a 1997 Proflex Team Race bike close to my home. The bike was supposedly 1 of 9 built for Beat Wabel who was on the circuit riding for Proflex. These never made it into production. The person I bought it from was a mechanic for Proflex working at Santa Cruz bikes.
It is XTR all the way around with Octalink I BB. Interesting it came with an NR-1 on the rear with an NR-2 for the fork.
I've ridden it some not that much and it hangs in my shed. The ride is sweet, very sweet for XC.
The swingarm matches up with a spare I bought years ago so I'm assuming the struts are also same dimension.
I'm pretty sure you could frankenstein one yet hoping the bearing placement was different to make my bike truly unique. I might pull the swing arm off and take more pics. Not that I doubt you but this has piqued my curiosity.
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Carbon, the bearing location may as well be in a different location, I guess the only way to know would be to measure it on a regular, production bike and in yours. The different size of the frames has to be taken into account as well, mine are all large size frames and your s is a way big.
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I'm going to hold off taking the swing arm off...you should too. The cantilever arms are a RPITA to put back on.
The sizes wouldn't make a difference in bearing placement.
a) production costs of EVO frames with cantilever swing arms.
b) chainstay lengths are same
Only difference I know is waybig sizes have longer crosslink fork legs and ULM (if you have a crosslink)
Main reasons for going with the cantilever swingarm was increase in travel and a much more stable rear shock (less yaw forces)
I'm going to check a few other things and get back later today or tomorrow.
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So finally got around to pulling the swingarm off and checking for a serial number.
No serial number
Offset swingarm bearing placement.
Is the bering orientation/ position the same as an EVO?
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Sorry for the massive picture, it's a different angle but the pivot location seems very similar if not identical.
Cable passage are different, with the K2 version having only one cable on the drive side.
(http://idriders.com/proflex/smf/MGalleryItem.php?id=609)
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I think you may need to reduce the kb of your photo....couldn't see it. INterested in seeing it!
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Oops, not sure what happen. Resized it now.
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The max size you can post one photo is 128kb.
You probably need to reduce the kb instead of dimensions and then just upload from your desktop.
There are online converters for this or you can download a program called irfanview (I use irfanview) and do it on your computer.
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The max size you can post one photo is 128kb.
You probably need to reduce the kb instead of dimensions and then just upload from your desktop.
There are online converters for this or you can download a program called irfanview (I use irfanview) and do it on your computer.
Carbon,
I reduced both dimension and size (as a result), the picture looks fine now in my post. Can you not see it?
http://idriders.com/proflex/smf/MGalleryItem.php?id=609 (http://idriders.com/proflex/smf/MGalleryItem.php?id=609)
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The max size you can post one photo is 128kb.
You probably need to reduce the kb instead of dimensions and then just upload from your desktop.
There are online converters for this or you can download a program called irfanview (I use irfanview) and do it on your computer.
Carbon,
I reduced both dimension and size (as a result), the picture looks fine now in my post. Can you not see it?
[url]http://idriders.com/proflex/smf/MGalleryItem.php?id=609[/url] ([url]http://idriders.com/proflex/smf/MGalleryItem.php?id=609[/url])
I see it fine. Have not kept up with the discussion though.
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Now I do!! thanks. Can't tell you why I couldn't B4.LOL
It looks similar, yet I'd like to see a pic similar to the one I posted. Don't take it off...it's hard to get back on but if anyone else is servicing their EVO with swingarm off I'd like to see a straight on pic.
:)
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Now I do!! thanks. Can't tell you why I couldn't B4.LOL
It looks similar, yet I'd like to see a pic similar to the one I posted. Don't take it off...it's hard to get back on but if anyone else is servicing their EVO with swingarm off I'd like to see a straight on pic.
:)
I am most definitely taking it off at some point. I've done the 4000 and the Bumpy Monkey (with the latter being way worse). When I do I'll take a pic.
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It's official. Now on my 4th k2/Proflex 4000/5000/EVO frame. I have a disease and it's not the terrible cold that is preventing me from playing in the garage with the 4000 blue frame that I just got on e-bay.
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ServiceGuy, did you see this one? Bummer it doesn't have the Crosslink, but...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/232626754958?ul_noapp=true (https://www.ebay.com/itm/232626754958?ul_noapp=true)
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I saw it, a bit pricey. Also, I've got a 5000 frame in the attic already. Over extended house renovation is sucking up all my time so I had not a chance to build it yet...
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Now I do!! thanks. Can't tell you why I couldn't B4.LOL
It looks similar, yet I'd like to see a pic similar to the one I posted. Don't take it off...it's hard to get back on but if anyone else is servicing their EVO with swingarm off I'd like to see a straight on pic.
:)
With the usual delay but here it is...both form a 4000 and a 5000 (you can also notice the different quality on the welding between the two). Now I also have a 857 frame and realized the pivot axles are different between the 4000/5000 and the 857, with the 857 being a little bit taller (hence the 857 swingarm ends are a tad thicker...
(http://idriders.com/proflex/smf/MGalleryItem.php?id=612)
(http://idriders.com/proflex/smf/MGalleryItem.php?id=613)
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I do see the difference in the welds and the stiffener added as well.
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I do see the difference in the welds and the stiffener added as well.
The stiffener is in both frames actually, the 4000 is less pronounced because of the less protruding beads (or maybe it's just the slightly different angle the picture was taken).
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Thanks very much for posting! Yours looks dead on center.
I posted a few pics of mine earlier for anyone who wants to compare
The team race bike has EVO frame and strut suspension.
It appears my EVO frame is also a unique build for the strut suspension and not just a strut suspension slapped onto a production EVO frame.
edit the frame is WAY BIG