K2 / Proflex Riders Group
General => Tech Forum => Topic started by: StoereVent on July 14, 2003, 11:40:09 pm
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Don't know about other countries, but here in Holland we follow the Tour de France intensively. And in yestarday's stage Beloki was speeding just in front of Armstrong when he fell down seriously: broke several bones. Armstrong could do nothing else but going off road. He shortcutted a hairpin turn off road (ofcourse di'd not puncture his tyre like anyone else would do) and came back with the group.
It made me think: how good a XC-rider would someone like Armstrong be? A famous dutch mountainbiking guy (Bart Brentjens) used to be a 'normal cyclist' (not a top one) before his montainbiking carriere took off.
I know it is a completely different discipline, but will a top cyclist beat the top mountainbikers?
just curious.
Jeroen.
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I remember reading an interview a couple of years ago when Armstrong said that his first Norba xc race was the hardest couple of hours he'd ever had on a bike. He certainly didn't kick ass but I suspect he will always give a good account of himself as long as the course is not too technical. He did a good job taking that short cut yesterday. I think he still gets on a mtb quite often.
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There are a few MTB guys that have made the jump to the pro peloton...Cadel Evans comes to mind...I think he may have even worn the Maglia Rosa at the Giro last year for a stage or two!
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Miguel Martinez did the tour last year, he tried to break away in a stage but did not get to far.
Road riding is a bit different and offers much. I used to compete much on mountain bike events and did ok. When I also got into road bikes; training and competing, I became extremely strong, and did very very good, in my mountain bike competitions.
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isnt it amazing technology,,people from all points of the globe discussing an incident we all saw as though we were there ...together!!!!Lance would do very very well on a hilly non technical course....now who is gonna win the tour Lance or that vinny bloke???
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We will know after the stage of next friday. He is beatable in the mountains (as we have seen).
If his result in his time trail isn't as good as other years (he lost some time in the first stage, while last year he won), I expect Vinokurov to win.
Jeroen.
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Armstrong should put 20 sec on Vinokurov in the time trail, he may concede to Ullrich. Could be wishfull thinking, but I beleive Armstrong has not employed his 100% on the mountains. This saturday I (we) should know if my wishful thinking is for real.
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Sorry, saturday, sunday, monday
look at the course profile for those stages, and Armstrong performance up to this point then makes sense (conserving muscles as much as posible)
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The Pyrennes will separate the men from the boys...remember, Lance might be toying with them like he has before...
Hats off to Hamilton!! That's one tough SOB! Broken collarbone and he ATTACKS Lance in the Alps!! :o
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agreed, tyler hamilton gets my vote for the toughest SOB in sports!! and he's only 137lbs!
He is, imho, waaaaay tougher than any sissy basketball, hockey, or football (American style) player.
anyway, tomorrow, Friday, will be the day we begin to find out about Lance. The Race of Truth, as they say.
They said this morning on the coverage that Lance has been battling some kind of intestinal problem that arose just before the Tour began. Its supposed to be gone now. could explain his performance to date, but still, he is ahead.
Vinokourov could present some problems, but I still think Ullrich is the main contender, but of course, I could be wrong.
I hope Hamilton finishes in the top five, if not the top three. He deserves a very high finish.
Did you see Arnold present the yellow jersey to Armstrong at the finish today? give me a break. he's there to promote T3, not to support the race, and they let him present the yellow jersey. I hate that crap, he's only an actor, a pretender.
anyway, have a nice day everyone, and have fun watching the time trial tomorrow and the mountains after.
Dennis [smiley=groucho.gif]
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I think Hamilton should probably quit now.
It is inmensely risky, if he was to fall down again. Had he not hurt himself he could have been fighting to win the tour, but in his present condition I don't think he will make top three. Sure sucks to have planned and trained so much and then get hurt the first day, but there are plenty other races for him to prove himself. Tyler you are tough, we want to see you win other races, after tomorrow's time trial, give it up!
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I was just reading a article, forgot where. Stating that a road rider should never be able win a mtb race. I've always thought that. Make the courses about bike handling. That's why the races are boring, they are technical , but relativly smooth.Their tires never leave the ground.Roland Green was from the road if i'm not mistaken, look what he's done. Yeah,going to be interesting to see what Lance does tomorrow. Rich
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mtb races that roadies can compete in are boring, probably why xc is not as popular as it used to be. I like watching those Red Bull comps but that is obviously a bit too extreme for the average rider, I'd like to see Lance tackle one of those courses!
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got to give all those roadies credit for this event. nothing comes close to the physical output over a long period of time.
i am following it closely.
Tyler Hamilton...AMAZING but he would have been out if there was ANY thing other than road riding. he has guts and a great training med staff.
Lance was IMO even more amazing following his "cyclocross' and the attacks in the Alps.
damn your parts still not there?????
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wow ullrich was strong in the tt is lance under the hammer or is he holding a bit back for the pyrenees(sp)???
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well, it looks like Lance is totally under the hammer. losing time two days in a row to Ullrich.
If Lance isn't careful and doesn't ride better, he will surely lose yellow tomorrow.
this morning he said he got completely dehydrated during the tt. he seems to be having his share of problems this year, but is still hanging on, if only by the skin of his nose.
tomorrow should be another interesting day.
[smiley=groucho.gif]
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I'm afraid it's all over for Lance. (well, not afraid, but anyway). After loosing the time trail to Ullrich and not making a good time compared to Vinokourov, I expected Vinokourov to beat Lance in today's course that much that Vino would ware yellow tomorrow. But never thought that Jan could beat Lance climbing.
Not only did Lance never lose a time trail to anybody (except Botero last year), but never Ullrich beat him in a climbing stage.
Indurain lost his attempt to win The Tour for the fifth time also in time trails, wich before he allways won.
Tomorrow I'm going to ride my own climbing trail, in the south of Holland where our highest Dutch mountain lies: 300 meters! (in fact ít's remarkable that there were very good Dutch climbers in the past : Rooks, Winnen, Zoetemelk, van Velden, Theunisse etc).
Jeroen.
Bill: still waiting, but ther's no hurry.
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hopefully its not quite over yet. if this dehydration thing is true, Lance should be alright tomorrow, but they keep saying things like that and Jan keeps moving up on him and beating him.
Lance has always said that Ullrich is his biggest competition, and now that Ullrich has adopted Lance's technique of lower gears and higher tempo he is capable of beating him.
there are interesting articles on www.olntv.com
seems the guys that have won 5 all say that the 5th was by far the toughest to win, and Lance certainly is finding that to be true as he tries to do the same thing.
btw, Miguel Indurain Larraya won 5 Tours de France in a row, the only person who ever did that. His lung capacity was over 30% bigger than any of his competitors and his resting heart rate was 36 bpm. pretty amazing!! also, that last tt that was the only one he lost, he had a very high fever the night before.
have fun watching the next stage.
[smiley=groucho.gif]
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boy i dunno, after today Lance will need to dig a little deeper, if he has any left.
there are three more days in the mtns and another time trial. Lance looks beaten. he was unable to go with the last break.
in the past he was a lion out there. he has been hunted this year and looks it.
hopefully he can recover fully from his dehydation
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Saturday was a bit depressing for me after I saw Armstrong suffering so much. He even lost a couple more seconds to Ullrich. Sunday, he seemed more in control, and proved he is still the man to beat. I think he can still win this tour, and beat Ullrich in the next time trial. Monday's stage, like saturday's and sunday's should also be very exciting , and perhaps Armstrong will make his move.
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Bite your tounge!! >:( WATCH TODAY'S STAGE!! :o
I won't spoil anything, just watch the stage. ;D
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Bite your tounge!! >:( WATCH TODAY'S STAGE!! :o
I won't spoil anything, just watch the stage. ;D
okay then i won't spoil it either.
:o [smiley=bomb.gif] :o
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darn, guess I won't spoil it either. but, I told you so.
[smiley=groucho.gif]
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when can we start spoiling again?
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[smiley=laughing.gif]Now would be a good time...shame on all you Doubting Thomases...Lance found his "A" game!!
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Will 67 seconds be enough?
Great stage from Lance, I have to admit, but why the hell did Jan wait? I know Lance waited 2 years ago, but that was something completely different: the tour was decided at that moment and they were going down at that moment.
I think Jan could be very sorry next sunday.
Jeroen.
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Great stage from Lance, I have to admit, but why the hell did Jan wait? I know Lance waited 2 years ago, but that was something completely different: the tour was decided at that moment and they were going down at that moment.
I think Jan could be very sorry next sunday.
Jeroen.
Because Jan is a class act. Besides, Jan would look like an idiot since Lance and Co. waited for him when he flatted in the 1st mountain pass.
I think what Mayo did was not classy. Sucked on Jan's wheel then outsprinted him to the finish. Mayo is not in contention anymore. He should have let Jan get the bonus points so that the race between Lance and Jan would be closer.
Regardless of whether Jan wins or loses, maybe he'll show up at Whister and hit the downhill slopes like he did last year.
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yeah, I agree, Jan waited because he is a class act. also, did you see Tyler go up and yell at the guys to wait?
I think its great that in at least one sport, they only want to win against their competitor's A-game. No winning by default if something out of their control happens to the competition.Its something that young people today should learn from. Its worth much more when you know you beat the other guy when he was at his best. Win at all costs is for losers, IMHO.
anyway, I think Lance will find an air-conditioned room to warm up for the last time trial, and will finish close enough to Jan to take his 5th TdF in a row, and tie Indurain.
[smiley=groucho.gif]
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;) You spoiled it for me! ;)
Just kidding!
I cant wait for Lance to start turning up the heat.
[smiley=beer.gif] [smiley=beer.gif] [smiley=beer.gif]
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i was watching it on OLN in the morning and woke up the neighborhood when Lance fell :o
it was a class act and a good showing of etiquette. Tyler Hamilton slowed the chase group, although Lance was not that far behind.
He became the hunter again, yesterday. I like Jan, I can relate more to him in physique as well as Hincapie. Jan had to pull by himself after Lance left the chase group and no one there would work with him. That did hurt Jan.
This race is not done, though, but I do think Lance has the upper hand now.
Also, noticed that the race has been won my mostly French and adjacent countries.. Ireland, Netherlands, Denmark and US.
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Waiting for armstrong may have hurt Ullrich time wise, but sure help him to be more respected and admired by us fans. The way Lance rode he may have won the stage wether his competitors waited for him or not. One of his teammates was there and helped him catch back up. Tomorrow, wednesday, should also be a battle filled stage.
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Some of the things about road cycling are the unspoken rules and repect the riders have for each other.
This is one of my favorites stories by Dylan Casey:
http://www.dylancasey.com/journal_detail.cfm?cid=128
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I don't agree with most of you I'afraid. Heard several former cyclists who said that Jan should not have waited. Agree: it's very noble but a bit stupid. Waiting, or not attacking when someone is having a flat tire is indeed a unwritten rule. Also it's not done to attack when someone is peeing. But when a rider falls by his own mistake, there's no rule. The basic poit is: is someone down or has someone stopped because of his own fault, or did he have bad luck. In case of bad luck the unwritten rule says to not attack or to wait.
BTW: NOBODY waited even a fraction of a second when Beloki fell. How about that?
Jeroen.
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but lance was bought down by a spectator(the spectator had a yellow plastic bag and it hooked lances hanlebar...its the same as a puncture nothing really you can do about it.Beloki crashed....no ones fault but his own.Besides the way lance was going i dont think it would have made any difference...although lance now owes jan a favour......i think it is right
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But Lance said it was his own fault himself!
I agree thah Lance could have won the stage anyway, but the time difference would have been smaller.
I'm afraid that I have to accept the fact that Lance is a bit stronger than Jan this year...
Jeroen.
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Don't forget that Lance also waited a couple years ago when Jan took a header on the descent from the Perysourde! TYLER HAMILTON RULES!! :o :o :o
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to me, Tyler Hamilton is the real stud out there. I don't care about spoiling it for anyone, Tyler was FANTASTIC today!! I don't remember who it was, but someone here thought Tyler should have dropped out after the TTT. what are you thinking now? sorry, couldn't resist.
he couldn't even raise or shake hands with his right arm after his victory today. He is amazing. Didn't I say a few days ago he is a real tough SOB.
They said on OLN that people were even doubting whether he had broken his clavicle or not. So, he had the doctors release the x-rays. people are amazing, they doubt people when they are at their best.
well, I hope something happens to Vino, because I would love to see Tyler on the podium in Paris, he deserves it like no other.
my two cents for today.
[smiley=groucho.gif]
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Lance said it was his fault, I guess, because it brings nothing but bad press and we all know how that goes for a Yank across the pond.... And Dennis, is that a clean break thru and thru or a cracked clavicle? I drove a stick shift 25 miles to the E.R. with a double break of one and can't imagine what Tyler's going through in the Tour.
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Scott,
apparently his clavicle is fractured in two places.
I once drove for 4 hours with two fractured ribs in a car with big side bolsters on the seat, and that was really painful, esp. when I went around corners and the bolsters pressed into my ribs.
I can't imagine what he's going through either. I was just watching the tape replay on OLN and the look of pain on his face as he climbed a mountain today was unbelievable.
[smiley=groucho.gif]
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Winning a stage in the tour and being the sixth north american to do so is an excellent reward for the risk Hamilton has taken. Whether he makes the podium or not, he has been paid.
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i don't want to poop on what Tyler did today, but to me he sure looked pretty good mobility wise with that shoulder. He was raisng, waving, lifting without any appearance of favoring it. He was suffering early on, but he is feeling better.
I do wish he was 100% as he, Jan and Lance would probably be the top three.
also, he was not chased by anyone, because this late it didn't matter to anyone, really. the whole frickin peleton finished behind him, no one attacked.
don't get me wrong he did a great thing today and is guts plus, but there were circumstances working in his favor to facilitate the win for him.
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i don't want to poop on what Tyler did today, but to me he sure looked pretty good mobility wise with that shoulder. He was raisng, waving, lifting without any appearance of favoring it. He was suffering early on, but he is feeling better. ..... anyone, really. the whole frickin peleton finished behind him, no one attacked.
there were circumstances working in his favor to facilitate the win for him.
yes, but there is also a lot of strategy going on here, as you know. did you see him thank his team manager on the finishing straight? Tyler realized his win had a lot to do with the circumstances working in his favor, but the team recognized the opportunity and Tyler had to have the strength to pull it off. the peloton closed on him quite rapidly at the end, and if Tyler had weakened (as most others would have done) he would not have won.
as for moving his arm around, I didn't see that. if fact, if you had seen the trophy ceremony it was quite evident that he couldn't lift anything with his right arm and, in fact, he couldn't raise it at all even without holding anything. there was a real look of pain in his face while he was holding the trophy (down by his waist, not over his head) in his right arm as they were taking pictures.
my 4cents.
[smiley=groucho.gif]
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yeah, okay on the podium, but i swear i saw him bang his handle bar with his right arm and raise both arms above his head at the finish, maybe i was still asleep.
have ridden a mtn bike with a distal fracture of my left collar bone about three miles, there is pain, but there was more pain trying to walk the bike out believe it or not. moving it is what hurts and pressure on it. Tyler might say that sleeping with it is harder than riding with it (my feeling)
he is a stud for staying in the Tour, however i'm just going a wee bit contray to all the praise and sympathy. and all those guys are so freakin awesome to be able to accomplish this feat
the following is not mine but I will quote it from a friend who sent it too me a few days ago....
"I really thank all the riders for they inspire me to achieve all the tangible and intangible goals. we can do it just move our feet and our ass will follow.
these people have really earned the respect and awe of the world. for we are all
watching. with our minds and hearts. the true majesty of sport and the human spirit in the drama of life itself. may grace of their pain unfold and transform us all."
BTW where to they get all those DDG podium women? ;D
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I'm figuring he's got a non-displaced fx. It's still going to hurt like crazy, but his shoulder will function normally. I would also speculate that he's receiving local anesthetic(lidocaine, bupivacaine, etc.) before the stage. Doesn't stop it from hurting, but might take the edge off...
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it's very hard but: to all the Armstrong-fans (if there exists somthing like that): congratulations whith the fifth victory in a row. To all the others: hopefully someone else next year!
(I think Armstrong should have waited some time when he heard Ullrich had fallen down)
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(I think Armstrong should have waited some time when he heard Ullrich had fallen down)
He did. As soon as he heard that Ullrich was down, he relaxed and eased off on the pace for the rest of the race. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. We all knew going in to that last TT that Ullrich wasn't very good at riding in the rain. All part of the game. Certainly not Lance's fault and definitely not a reason to stop and wait.
How do you reconcile this statement with your previous comment about Jan Ullrich waiting for Lance? (In case you forgot, you said: "Great stage from Lance, I have to admit, but why the hell did Jan wait? I know Lance waited 2 years ago, but that was something completely different: the tour was decided at that moment and they were going down at that moment. I think Jan could be very sorry next sunday.") Methinks I see a little bit of unfounded anti-Lance sentiment in your posts. Who's laughing now?
Also, regarding Lance's crash a few days ago, when he said it was his own fault, he was playing smart, being a gentleman, whatever you want to call it. Had he tried to pass the blame, it would have looked like he was looking for an excuse. As it was, by saying it was his own fault, it turned the situation into more of "I made a mistake" (and I still dominated). Don't forget that Lance is a PR wiz. As to whether or not it really was his fault...well, let's just say that if somebody suddenly leaned out right in front of ME holding a bag in front of them, which snagged my handlebars, it would certainly NOT be MY fault!
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@ Matno,
ofcourse I don't really think Lance should have waited (do you really think I'm that stupid (do you only recognize sarcasm when people add a smiling face to the posting)?)... And ofcourse Lance did win because he was the best. And there's no 'unfounded anti-Lance sentiment' in my posts. But most of the time I tend to favor the underdog (but ofcourse you could not know that 'coz you don't know me).
I have to admit this: I'm a sentimental guy that thinks that Eddy Merkcx is the best cyclist there has even been (eventough I'm not Belgian), and I'm afraid Lance is going to win even his 6th tour: people could mistake Lance for a better cyclist than Merkcx. Maybe that's the deeper motivation behind my postings. (so no 'unfounded anti-Lance sentiment', but very 'founded anti-Lance sentiment'.
I'm very happy for you that you are laughing now.
Jeroen.
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Well, I for one would like to see Tyler Hamilton win next year, but would not be at all disappointed to see Lance win 6 times. It would be a great thing.
For me, the real hero of this Tour is of course, Tyler Hamilton. To finish 4th and to win a stage with his collarbone situation (and to win the team classification) is truly an inspiring performance.
Also, in my opinion. Lance really proved just how great a cyclist he is by overcoming the 3 crashes he had personally, plus his good fortune and quick thinking not to get caught up in Beloki's crash, and not to have his chainstay break in the fall on the Luz Ardiden climb (yes, on OLN they stated that his drive side chainstay had cracked 3/4 of the way through in his crash with the musette bag). that Trek sure is strong, even for the special lightweight one he was riding.
He had an awful lot to overcome, but it was still his to lose at the end. Yes, Jan pushed him to the max, but its too bad Beloki crashed out because I believe he would have given Lance a harder time. Could you imagine what it would have been like to have Beloki and Ullrich attack Lance on the Luz Ardiden climb? that would have brought out the very best in all of them.
I don't see how one can try to see that Merckx, or Armstrong, or Indurain, or whoever is the best cyclist ever. They all raced in different eras. Suffice it to say that Merckx was the best of his era, Hinault the best of his, and Armstrong the best of his. This an age of specialization in all sports and even though Merckx and Hinault won all different races, Armstrong (like all great sportsman of the current era) has specialized in the Tour and has made it his own. Since it is the greatest bike race in the world, I would say he is the best cyclist in the world right now.
anyway, it was the best Tour I have seen and I can't wait for next year to see if Lance can win 6 and to see if Tyler can present a really serious challenge as a totally healthy rider.
What is disappointing to me is the coverage of mtb events. the other night I was watching a DH race (world cup) on OLN. it was a half hour that covered both the men's and women's races. They showed the runs (partial) of about 4 women and maybe 5 men. they showed not more than 30 seconds of each run of a total time of almost 2 minutes.
it was crappy coverage, but I guess not too many advertisers have much interest in mtb racing anymore. too bad, I really like watching DH but could give a rat's a__ about XC. XC too me is roadies on dirt roads. not technical enough. but thats a different thread.
my 5 cents.
[smiley=groucho.gif]
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Did anyone see the CBS TDF show Sunday? What a waste! It was truly pathetic. Oh, it was cool how they edited everything and added dramatic music, but how can you possibly cover a 3-week event in one hour? It was very strange hearing Liggett's commentary again in the CBS highlight mode.
It's no wonder that cycling hasn't taken off here in the states. There is effectively zero television coverage of cycling here in the mainstream media. I wonder how many people actually know that the tour has been going on for the last 3 weeks. It's all very sad. Thank goodness for OLN! I switched from cable to satellite specifically for OLN and the cycling coverage.
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;)i am a huge lance fan, but i kinda agree with storerevent. nobody ever dominated so much in the tour as merkcx. if you read about his accomplishments in other major races, not just the tour, he was one of a kind. he has held 3 jerseys at one time and 2 more than once. he has to be the greatest. i know it was different times then but very little has changed. you still have to pedal a bike that is driven by a chain. technology has made some differences but it still is a brutal, physical and mental challenge.
but i am extremely proud of both lance and tyler. they both have shown the kind of grit and determination that i thought american athletetes once had but lost.
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Jeroen,
Sorry, I must have been tired when I posted that last post! Normally, I'm not nearly that provocative! (I also admit to not always recognizing sarcasm without smileys!)
There's nothing wrong with favoring the underdog. I would love to see Tyler Hamilton win. (Can you imagine how awesome it would have been if he had won this time?!) On the other hand, I'm not much of a Jan Ullrich fan (in spite of having spent several years in Germany). I'm not sure why. However, I do feel bad for him. It must really hurt to finish 2nd so many times. He is a good sport about it. I'm glad he at least won one tour...
I too am a huge fan of Eddy Merkcx. Nobody can dispute his incredible record. On the other hand, while I actually usually do favor the underdog, I also love to see someone who totally dominates. Don't forget that not too long ago, Lance WAS the underdog. (Well, okay, NOW it's starting to seem like a long time ago!)
I can't help but think how much the TdF has changed with modern technology/strategy. I can't imagine that the whole team concept (i.e. the whole team focused on getting one person to the front) played as much of a role "back in the day" as it does now. I never watched the TdF as a kid, so I really don't know how it used to be, but I'd sure like to see. I have heard though, that there used to be a lot more physical contact (i.e. pulling on jerseys, etc). Somebody should make a video collection with highlights from all of the previous tours (that have been filmed). That would be awesome....
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I think one big effect technology has had on the pro bike racing is TV and radios on the riders.
In the old days, Lance would have had no idea that Jan had fallen in the TT, for example, and would have been forced to take more risks. Who know, maybe Lance would have fallen also.
Also, in the past, the peloton would have had no idea just how far ahead any breakaways would be. These days, they always know just how far ahead the breaks are, and are able to gauge how fast they need to go to bring them back. except, of course, when Tyler Hamilton is out front!!!
[smiley=groucho.gif]
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Dennis -you wrote "I really like watching DH but could give a rat's a__ about XC. XC too me is roadies on dirt roads. not technical enough. but thats a different thread." Not to go to far off the path here but if you ever have a chance to ride some of the CT. or the N.Y. Hunter Mtn x/c series you might find the excitement missing in most x/c events. Both series feature courses with sections too technical to be ridden by fairly accomplished sport class riders-not too shabby for NORBA sponsored races.