K2 / Proflex Riders Group
General => Tech Forum => Topic started by: deadprez1411 on September 23, 2009, 01:53:01 am
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I have being doing a project on my proflex 5500
So far
Part 1
I stripped bike so it was all in bits, decided I wanted to have frame cleaned up as laquer on frame was bubbling up a bit and looked very dull, I didn't really know how or if anything was possible, found a company called Finish Line, in Coventry, that are Carbon fibre Specialist, they said we can make it look like new again, by rubbing the frame down to remove laquer and then re laquering ( if such a word ) by using a process called UV Stable laquer,
They had frame and rear swing arm to do
Summary they did and amazing job frame and swing arm looks amazing will upload photo's ( bike currently all at bike shop)
Part 2
Wanted to change front and rear Shocks To Maverick DUC 32 on the front and a Fox RP23 rear shock, got maverick DUC32 off ebay was a few scratches on it and chips, got them shock blasted and re sprayed got new decals, had that all done now, they are getting sent off to somewhere in kent to be serviced, rear shock to be fitted this week hopefully.
Part 3
Fitting front and rear Disc's ( mission impossible)
Front disc wil be fine due to attachments on maverick forks, rear brake disc's different matter, having read through all the different articles on this on here i thought i could give all of this to the man who is doing this for me, ( Albany bike Shop Coventry) but he has got another idea using a Rod that connects onto swing arm somewhere.
To be fitted with carbon Fibre brake levers,
work to be completed HOPEFULLY by 1st/2nd Week of October
Will Try and get some pictures posted this week sometime, quite excited how will all turn out, I did start out with a budget for this project but this has got totally out of hand now, but hey I really like this bike, so it should be worth it.
Next project
proflex 5000
Does anyone know if you can service front suspension with Smart shocks on them and where ??
cheers
Paul
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rear disk: what you need is a hammerhead CAHH2K or something equivalent - sadly, my last one has gone now (I'll double check in the workshop tomorrow), but someone might have one spare.
I bought a carbon frame that had an imitiation HammerHead on it made out of aluminium - I would not recommend this route if you are going to use a lightweight rotor/disk brake (such as a formula b4 140) because it just transfers too much heat to the dropout which, can in theory, loosen the epoxy. Obviously, the HH's weren't made from aluminium - however, this has made it nigh on impossible to get a manufacturer to make new ones for me and mikey.
callum
rds
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callum, sorry your talking bollox about an alloy brake mount, utter rubbish, what do you think the brake mounts are made from on most carbon bikes????? jeeeesuz
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actually - I'm not.
Mike did some heat transfer testing with some heat indicator tape from Saab to show heat maximum attained temperature. If you look at any carbon framed bike that has disk tabs, they have an elongated left side dropout to allow for cooling. That's why he chose the steel based alloy because : a) it wasn't brittle (like some aluminium alloys), b) it didn't conduct well and c) cooled pretty quickly.
A formula b2 140 (that's what we tested with) could make a dropout too hot to touch. It also caused fluid boiling problems (pump up in the lever). When I used to sell formula brakes, we managed to heat one up to glow during a night ride !!!
Look up aluminum conductivity vs steel alloys and you will see what I mean.
Sure, you can do tricks such as make a fatter adapter and CNC vents; but some DIYer at home with an unknown sheet of Al isn;t going to do that research until they hit a tree headfirst.
cheers
c
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callum, sorry your talking bollox about an alloy brake mount, utter rubbish, what do you think the brake mounts are made from on an alloy bike????? jeeeesuz
Have you had a bad day mate? Seem a bit out OTT even if you dont agree. Sorry but I`ve never seen a post like this in all the time `Ive used this forum. Calum does`nt make money from us and is unlikley to make a product more complicated or out of expensive materials on a whim.
Cheers, Tel.
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Even more reason to hate disc brakes.
But why not put a fiber barrier between the parts like gasket material to defeat heat transfer?
At some point I thought someone had actually welded an alum brake adapter to a carbon swingarm insert, and it did not wreck the epoxy. On the other hand they happen to get loose for no reason at all. ??? ???
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it's OK; no offence taken, I'm used to it and it's just northern english slang!
Funnily enough, mike just posted to his facebook page about having to stop to let is B4's cool during a trip riding a glacier in norway with his brother.
When we first did the CAHH2K design we were really worried about heat transfer. To the point that we nearly didn't produce any. It wasn't until we had done a lot of heat testing and got some help from a senior engineer at Saab that we decided to go for it. Of course, history didn't go quite the way we worried about: disk brakes got larger instead of smaller and so the problem went away. The CAHH2K used a stainless alloy and conducts about 15x less than aluminium.
I normally work in metric, but here's a good article from wikianswers:
A figure of merit for copper is 231
A figure of merit for stainless steel is 8.1
A figure of merit for steel (mild) is 32
A figure of merit for aluminum is 136.
The units are BTU / H * ft * Degrees F.
For a given length of time copper will conduct almost twice as much heat as aluminum and 28 times as much as stainless steel (but only about 7 times as much as regular steel). This is why there are copper bottomed stainless steel pots.
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Hi Callum
Cheers for your advice I did try and get the hammerhead plate like you recommended, but couldn't source one, but to be honest i am quitely confident my man at the bike shop, is going to sort it for me ( I hope ) he has being really good so far, had a few hiccups along the way that where mostly down to me, buying stuff from ebay that I should have bought new like my forks Maverick DUC32 which have just being a nightmare.
I have a proflex 5000 as well and I am going to transfer my smart shocks onto it from my 5500 but i wanted to know
A) could I change the front shock to am better one, or do you recommend getting it serviced if possible so i can keep smart shock, as I like them
B) Or could i get front shock changed, keeping carbon forks and still use smart shock on it as well, is that possible ( I know that seems a bit mad but just wondering )
hopefully getting copmpleted bike apart from stickers back on 11th October but might be delayed by few days, so will have to wait and see, but getting close now can't wait.
Cheers
Paul
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Hiya
Callum's reasoning on heat transfer has its logic when it comes to protecting the glue, but it falls down when you look at how you're supposed to dissipate the heat that accumulates.
You need a good conductor to take the heat away, the trouble is that with a carbon frame there's nowhere to take it to...
Mind you, anyone insane enough to use 140 mm disks deserves all the meltdowns they get. If you're over 50 kg it's madness to go under 160mm, even in the UK where the hills are generally over in less than a minute
After boiling the fluid regularly for a year or so on my Hope Mini 165s I have spent the last few years on 185 front and rear.
Pure progressive one finger braking. No hand fatigue, and where I live that's a serious issue, and no boiling.
And the heat source (the caliper) is further away from the frame too.
Now what I don't understand is why bother to have the HH or other adapter on the OUTSIDE of the dropout, It means very long bolts and more sources of flex, which is a problem many have mentioned.
But that's a subject I've been meaning to bring up on the relevant thread.
Enjoy the build.
Luke
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at one point we were experimenting with carbon vanes to stick to the cylinder and hammerhead - much like a CPU heatsink in the old days. Thought it might look cool (it was 1999, so forgive me!) but mike looked at me funny and just advised to put cutouts in the hammerhead and this cools using passing air, where the passing air is a lot cooler than the rotor, even on a hot day.
callum
rds
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I used a 3mmally plate bolted to the inside of the eye on my OZ.
It eventually flexed and the claiper rubbed on the disk. So I got a plate of 3mm steel instead. It required more shaping to achieve the desired mounting , but works really well.
160mm Juicy 5 on the rear / 203 on the front.
I drilled and tapped 4 holes in the eye for 4 3mm SS allen headed bolts, these then fixed to the the inside, and matched the drop out shape as another mounting point.
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I have finished my project now, tried sticking some photo's up but got a message saying that photo's could be no bigger than 128k is that right if so what do people save them under to make smaller.
Cheers
Paul
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just been looking at the new C`dale Flash 16.5lb :o carbon hardtail, guess what, its got an alloy rear disc mount and drop out, and even bigger shock! 140mm rear disc!! itll fall apart surely!! wouldnt that be a waste of £7k
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Ah I have been thinking of buying one of these to race xc on ;)
I heard tell that one of the Scott designers went to Cannondale hence the Flash
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I have finished my project now, tried sticking some photo's up but got a message saying that photo's could be no bigger than 128k is that right if so what do people save them under to make smaller.
Cheers
Paul
You have to resize it. My kids taught me to open the picture in MSPaint, then skew it down to 40% both ways, then save that way. Then when you upload it will have a small pixal count. (Holy cow, I am a genius in my own mind, but somehow I locked myself out of viewing pictures on this site.).
Terry
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Why not host it from another site like photobucket
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Here are some more pics
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More PICs
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More Pics 2
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More Pics 1
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That looks really nice Paul well done. The rear disc hanger is the same style as the one that came with my OZ frame. Mine was made by Hope.
How much did it cost to get your frame and arm re-laquered as I've just landed a large size 4500 which could do with it?
Chris
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Wow, it's so dark & carbon-y it's like the Death Star on wheels. Any idea of the weight?
Very nice!
- Doug :-)
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Hi thanks for comments people, alot of hard work went into that bike took me ages to complete, and to much money but hey I wanted to make it the best i could, the cost of the laquer was about £250 which I know is expensive but they did and amazing job and close up it looks amazing, it was worth it, the frame had started to bubble up along the joins and was looking pretty tired, so had no choice really, it took them about two weeks to complete they had to do it three times to get it right, the guy said that it wasn't financially worth while for then but they said they where very happy outcome, so was I, reference weight I think they said the weight was 29lbs I think, not sure whether that is heavy or light by today standards, but the bike feels very light to pick and and whilst you are riding it, I will do a full break down of components this week at some point.
Cheers
Paul
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Hi
forgot to mention the company that did it was called Finish Line, Coventry, West Midlands, I can really reccommend this place very good.
Cheers
Paul
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Did you have to remove all of the metal hardware from the frame for the lacquering?
i.e. the cable run mounts and the swing arm shock mount.
If you did, I assume you drilled out the rivets, but does that mean the rivet internal ends are loose inside the frame, or does anyone know if you can get loose objects out from inside a carbon frame?
I'd really like to remove the cable run mounts on my Oz to modify them, or replace them with Hydraulic cable run mounts, but I can imagine I'll end up with a "Baby Rattle" as a frame with all of the loose odds and ends in it!
i.e. I'm also building a pair of Oz/Maverick Monsters!
Col.
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A little tip for ya......when you drill out old rivets and alike inject a good dollop of grease with a gun or seringe into the holes and all those little rattles will get stuck to the grease ;D