K2 / Proflex Riders Group
General => Tech Forum => Topic started by: asylum_inc on February 09, 2008, 10:40:42 am
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OK - here is the update- A while back I posted a question regarding keeping the k2 or getting something newer like a yeti 575... the overwhelming response was...do I need to tell you? So far I have the disc wheels (easton havoc). discs (avid bb7 185 f/r), and a manitou minute 3:00 fork. A manitou swinger is waiting to be installed - I just need to modify the bushings I had made and modify the swingarm bracket so the shock will fit. Go to my gallery for pics or look here:
(http://idriders.com/proflex/coppermine/albums/userpics/10115/normal_5500c_in_progress_-_disc_adapt_resize.jpg)
(http://idriders.com/proflex/coppermine/albums/userpics/10115/normal_5500c_in_progress_-_discs_resize.jpg)
Many thanks for your help so far - I will update this thread as I finish up this project. :)
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whats the dic brake adaptor again????to azy to look back ;p
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whats the dic brake adaptor again????to azy to look back ;p
I NEED ONE OF THOSE!!!!!
GIMMEEE GIMMEEE GIMMEEEE!!!!!!
Seriously though, I do need a rear disk adaptor for an Oz! Get in touch!
Thanks
Colin S
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Yes, Yes. Where did you get that adapter? ;D This may have changed my mind about rear disk. ???
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Nice to finally see that adaptor where it belongs - on an Oz, instead of sitting on my desk mocking me...
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Matno - thanks again for helping me on my quest to discs - I cant wait to get my swinger mounted ( man - that still sounds funny ::) ) and get a test ride in.
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Nice to finally see that adaptor where it belongs - on an Oz, instead of sitting on my desk mocking me...
If you can just churn out 10-20 of these that should just about meet initial demand!
Come on! Where from/How made/drawings etc etc..........
Nil response from Callum (RDI) regarding getting a Hammerhead so I need to look elsewhere!
Anyone got a good scale drawing they can let me have?
Could I then cut one from sheet carbon fibre? Come on EADS (Eurofighter) member, please comment!
Or Stainless?
Col.
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If you can just churn out 10-20 of these that should just about meet initial demand!
Come on! Where from/How made/drawings etc etc..........
Nil response from Callum (RDI) regarding getting a Hammerhead so I need to look elsewhere!
Anyone got a good scale drawing they can let me have?
Could I then cut one from sheet carbon fibre? Come on EADS (Eurofighter) member, please comment!
Or Stainless?
Col.
Ditto! :-*
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Nice to finally see that adaptor where it belongs - on an Oz, instead of sitting on my desk mocking me...
If you can just churn out 10-20 of these that should just about meet initial demand!
Come on! Where from/How made/drawings etc etc..........
Nil response from Callum (RDI) regarding getting a Hammerhead so I need to look elsewhere!
Anyone got a good scale drawing they can let me have?
Could I then cut one from sheet carbon fibre? Come on EADS (Eurofighter) member, please comment!
Or Stainless?
Col.
Dominic who used to frequent this site (UK based,we meet up a couple of times) was a wizz with carbon.
checkout his bike, no its not an Oz,well not origonal he made a mould and made his own out of pure carbon
not the standard thermo plasic shell that Proflex/K2 used.
Colin send me you email and I can forward you an adapter to scale drawing.
(http://idriders.com/proflex/galleries/Simon/DSCF0004.jpg)
Simon.
Oh forgot he made some carbon disc adapters to
I may have some contact details for those interested though they may be out of date.
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The hammerhead adaptors are actually made by Mike Billet (mike@racing-green.com) who has indicated that if he got enough enquiries it may be possible to get a batch of hammerheads made up. Drop Mike ane-mail and see what he can do...he seems a really helpfull guy (so a true proflexer then!).
Hope this helps ou guys
Timbo
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not to long ago someone was selling a oz mould and it played on my mind if to buy it or not. looks like somebody
read my mind. was gonna visit an old machine shop i used to be pally with some 12 years ago to see if i could get
one done in alu or even use geometry for titanium make up..
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OK - almost complete... I just need to clean up the upper bushings for the rear shock and she is complete... :)
On to the pics:
(http://idriders.com/proflex/coppermine/albums/userpics/10115/normal_100_0087_resize.JPG)
(http://idriders.com/proflex/coppermine/albums/userpics/10115/normal_100_0085_resize.JPG)
(http://idriders.com/proflex/coppermine/albums/userpics/10115/normal_100_0083_resize.JPG)
Many thanks for everyone's thoughts and input ;D
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try compressing the rear shock as much as you can...make sure it doesnt hit the seat post...
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Very, very nice! ;)
Terry
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Very Very prettybike. Looks more modern with the discs as opposed to rim brakes.
What length and stroke swinger did you get ?
I tried to fit a RS Pearl, but it was too large in diameter and hit the frame at 3/4 compression.
Looking at a dhx5.0 now 222 x 63mm
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KIWI - I checked the seatpost vs. travel a while ago - I don't like those kind of surprises on a ride :)
IMO - The eye to eye is around 212mm travel is 54-55mm
Thanks for the compliments everyone :)
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Sorry everyone, I started a reply several days ago, then never finished it! Wish I had more of those adaptors, but it was actually Dominic (who used to post here - the guy whose beautiful homemade Oz is in Simon's contribution to this thread) who made the carbon adaptor. He offered to send them to forum members a few months back (I think he had made a small batch), and I couldn't resist asking for one. Decided I'm never going to get around to putting it on my bike, so I sent it to Asylum...
Matno
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Hello,
I recently joined this forum and found this article. I have an Oz and a 4500c. I was wondering if these adapters can be had anywhere.
Thanks,
Gregory
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Hello,
I recently joined this forum and found this article. I have an Oz and a 4500c. I was wondering if these adapters can be had anywhere.
Thanks,
Gregory
I think A2Z makes universal adapters. Otherwise people a making thier own. That carbon one is super sweet. If I could source the material and get a patern, I would see about waterjeting some.
Terry
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It's been a while but Hammer is back in the confession box here at iriders!
I have been getting quite a few requests for adapters recently and have been emptying the boxes here trying to keep everyones bikes up to date and disc braked up...
So even though I will probably never sell them all, (and make a loss) I am willing to make a few batch's of adapters as a thank-you to all you faithful and wonderful people who love thier Pro~Flex bikes as much as I love mine.
The order will go in directly after the easter break (2008) and should be ready for shipment within 14 days.
Drop me an email stating what you need and don't forget your postal address so I can send you a kit in exchange for a few euro dollars.....
Take it easy,
Hammer.
ps.. I have some carbon fibre adapters knocking around here in the "test only" boxes, but the waterjet cutting made a pretty big mess of the holes, so I didn't dare test them! I did make a UniVersal HammerHead (UVHH) in carbon fibre which was fitted to my singlespeed for the 2001 world championships, it is still going strong and is still my "most used" bike.... the carbon adapter plate flexes quite a lot, but is still there! The only negative thing I have noticed during the 7 years of useage is that the carbon fibre adapter plate gets through brake pads quicker....! Probably a combination of reduced thermal transistion of braking forces (increased heat in the pads) and flex in the adapter plate.
Maybe somebody has a stiffer carbon material available now than was supplied to me in Y2K by swedens leading composite supplier... 8 years is a long long time in R&D...
So I am currently not totally convinced that brake adapters based on the HammerHead design are a good use for carbon fibre! All HammerHeads are made of high grade aerospace alloy and have stood the test of time.
I did make some in Ti but found that the calliper gets around 10% hotter, so I will stick to using the tried and tested material for this latest and possibly last ever batch.
www.racing-green.com you'll find my email address there, or hit the link under my avatar...
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that deserves a hit of karma mike!....I will prolly never get round to it but did you ever do an x56 adapter??
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I agree, KARMA.
That was a great eye opener Hammer. Thermal transition from the pads. Dang, I never thought of that. So really the best material would be alum welded to an alum frame. Beyond that, alum with lots of surface area bolted to the dropout.
The increase in pad wear you describe with carbon adapter could be a combination of heat and vibration?
Terry
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Really the best material would be Alu and silver. Unfortunatly the price of silver is rather high, but the thermal conductivity of silver is very high.
I would be interested in a Disc brake adapter for the OZ. How much , roughly £££ ??
Interesting point on heat dissapation,on a car the disc works as a heat sink, but the MB discs are minimal in weight and construction, do the heat has to go somewhere
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Really the best material would be Alu and silver. Unfortunatly the price of silver is rather high, but the thermal conductivity of silver is very high.
I would be interested in a Disc brake adapter for the OZ. How much , roughly £££ ??
Interesting point on heat dissapation,on a car the disc works as a heat sink, but the MB discs are minimal in weight and construction, do the heat has to go somewhere
Hmmm, yes I think thermal transmission is the issue. On a carbon swing arm bike, I think you don't want to conduct heat into the dropout, because if that heats up too much then a melted thermoplastic swing arm could be the result, or at the least the epoxy join could fail......?
IMHO I believe that the material to use would be low thermally conductive and leave the brake unit and disk to dissipate the heat.
I'm on the list for disk adaptors with Mike and can't wait to start the Oz/Maverick build that I have planned..........
Col.
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I've successfully welded disc adaptors to carbon swingarm dropouts,this is onto the top edge not against the side of the dropout ;D
I'll see if I can find a pic
Simon.
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Here's the starting point kit supplied by Hope
(this was something I did for ProflexGB for his evo and his Oz)
sorry about the picture sizing but I've just copied these from his gallery,just scroll across using the bar at the bottom to see the full pic's or checkout his gallery.
Simon.
(http://idriders.com/proflex/galleries/proflexGB/hope_mount1.jpg)
(http://idriders.com/proflex/galleries/proflexGB/Resize_of_new_evo4.jpg)
(http://idriders.com/proflex/galleries/proflexGB/hope2.jpg)
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Add me to the list of adapter buyers. I need to build up my 5500c frame soon. Doesn't do much good collecting dust.
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I've successfully welded disc adaptors to carbon swingarm dropouts,this is onto the top edge not against the side of the dropout ;D
I'll see if I can find a pic
Simon.
:o :o :o
Now that is magic. You did not have to rebond the insert? That must have been some cold welding. No problems so far? Did you use chill plates?
Good show,
Terry
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I've successfully welded disc adaptors to carbon swingarm dropouts,this is onto the top edge not against the side of the dropout ;D
I'll see if I can find a pic
Simon.
:o :o :o
Now that is magic. You did not have to rebond the insert? That must have been some cold welding. No problems so far? Did you use chill plates?
Good show,
Terry
Hi Terry
I can't take the credit for the welding part ;),
I basically modified the adaptors to the correct shape and jigged it them up into the correct position 8).
A friend welded them on an as far as I know he kept the carbon part of the swingarm cool whilst welding.
ProflexGB had 3 done, the close up one shown isn't one of the ones I had done and he wasn't to pleased with
the standard of weld so asked me if I could get a couple of others done,shame I haven't a pic of the ones I had done
they had a lovely weld 8).
As far as I know they're still running fine, ProflexGB went to work in Greece and I haven't heard from him for a while.
Simon.
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I can help with this as I have one of ProflexGB's welded swingarms, as he gave me his 4000 before heading off to Greece.
By a strange coincidence have only just used the welded disc adapters as I rebuilt it this weekend with new kit. I must admit I have had some problems with the LX brakes I put on not lining up correctly on the welded adapter and got around it temporarily by adding a washer between the adapter and the disc mounting bracket but it still rubs the rotor a bit. I need to have a closer look at it as I might be able to adjust the brakes in some way, but to me it looked like the adapter might be off slightly, but this is my first experience with disc brakes so I may be wrong. The swingarm ProflexGB gave to me had never been used but I know he had no problems with the ones on his OZ's, that is until he moved as I have lost touch with him too :(
Your right Simon the weld is lovely I will try and take a picture tonight and post it up
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I must admit I have had some problems with the LX brakes I put on not lining up correctly on the welded adapter and got around it temporarily by adding a washer between the adapter and the disc mounting bracket but it still rubs the rotor a bit. I need to have a closer look at it as I might be able to adjust the brakes in some way, but to me it looked like the adapter might be off slightly, but this is my first experience with disc brakes so I may be wrong. The swingarm ProflexGB gave to me had never been used but I know he had no problems with the ones on his OZ's, that is until he moved as I have lost touch with him too :(
Your right Simon the weld is lovely I will try and take a picture tonight and post it up
From the experience I have had, the adapter needs to be exactly flush and parallel to the inside of the dropout. That makes it very easy to fixture also.
This whole exercise is interesting, as I figured for sure that the bonding would be deteriorated.
Terry
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I must admit I have had some problems with the LX brakes I put on not lining up correctly on the welded adapter and got around it temporarily by adding a washer between the adapter and the disc mounting bracket but it still rubs the rotor a bit. I need to have a closer look at it as I might be able to adjust the brakes in some way, but to me it looked like the adapter might be off slightly, but this is my first experience with disc brakes so I may be wrong. The swingarm ProflexGB gave to me had never been used but I know he had no problems with the ones on his OZ's, that is until he moved as I have lost touch with him too :(
Your right Simon the weld is lovely I will try and take a picture tonight and post it up
From the experience I have had, the adapter needs to be exactly flush and parallel to the inside of the dropout. That makes it very easy to fixture also.
This whole exercise is interesting, as I figured for sure that the bonding would be deteriorated.
Terry
Hope supplied a lining up jig which held the mount not only in the correct position but flush to the dropout.
I wasn't happy with this because it was quite flimsy and could distort with the mounting whilst welding.
So I copied the jig using a thicker material.
Funny when I used the carbon arm I had both the rear dropouts and the front right hand dropout come loose (I never welded my carbon arms)
all had to be rebonded in, infact thats how I found this site all those years ago looking up best way to repair them.
;D
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Performance update -
Bike is smooth, comfortable, and confidence inspiring. 8) One bad thing - I took the bike down some hilly roads near my house to bed in the brakes. At the end of a small downhill I was looking at the rear disk while braking (I know – dangerous) at about 10 mph I could see what I would consider too much flex. I do not know if it is flexing more because I have a 185mm rotor or not. I think I will be in the market for an aluminum adapter. :( Just when I thought this beast was ready to go...oh well. I guess it will be that much more fun when it is finally complete :)
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that deserves a hit of karma mike!....I will prolly never get round to it but did you ever do an x56 adapter??
Hi there...
Yes we made a x56 adapter and it is probably the nicest looking and least sold one we made!
I might have some knocking around...
For those worried about heat transfer and such, don't get too concerned with it... even with my carbon adapters I never got any brake fade, just noted that the pads wear quicker... but unless you are riding 50 miles a day I doubt it will hurt your savings too badly...
And as was already mentioned.. I would be more concerned about passing too much heat into the dropout and glue that bonds the dropout into the carbon arm. We have never had any reports or issues of any heat soak problems using the aerospace stainless alloy that we decided to go with in the end.... alluminium whilst a little lighter, required a thicker plate, special QR skewers and so on... plus fatigue is always going to be an issue with alluminium when it starts getting 2-3 years old....
For the record... my carbin adapters flexed visibly as you mentioned, but I have never had a failure, just gets through pads quicker. I think your carbon mount looks fine and will last longer than your knees anyway.. ;-)
I have placing an order for more HammerHeads this week.... so if you want one, drop me a line and we will follow the usual proceedure.
Take it easy Proflex-heads...
Hammer
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Hi
Can somebody help me locate where I can get a brake disc adapter for my 5500, really appreciate any help cheers
Paul
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Your best bet is to email Mike Billet at mike@racing-green.com. Ask him if he has any hammerheads for a OZ/x500c swingarm. I just bought one from him back in January. Good Luck.
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I've completely run out as well and all the places I've touted round to get some made up have quoted really high prices - i.e. the sort of price that makes it not worth it.
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Performance update - Bike is smooth, comfortable, and confidence inspiring. 8) One bad thing - I took the bike down some hilly roads near my house to bed in the brakes. At the end of a small downhill I was looking at the rear disk while braking (I know – dangerous) at about 10 mph I could see what I would consider too much flex. I do not know if it is flexing more because I have a 185mm rotor or not. I think I will be in the market for an aluminum adapter. :( Just when I thought this beast was ready to go...oh well. I guess it will be that much more fun when it is finally complete :)
Bummer. 185 is kind of big for a rear disc, but that shouldn't be a problem. Could you feel the flex? What direction was it flexing? Seems to me that most of the force on my disc adapter is in-line with the plate, but I also have spacers between the mount and the brake itself that rest flush on the dropout, which probably eliminates most of the twisting torque. You could try that (i.e. use bigger washers or whatever you used).
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This is as good a place to ask as any rather than starting a new post. Does anyone have a recommendation on where I can get a longer rear skewer? I can't use the springs with the hammerhead, and it make's life difficult. I've looked online and haven't found anything. Or perhaps a small spacer might work to backup the spring. Hmmmmm, I didn't think of that before.
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Try a 145 quick release for tandem bikes. REI carries Bob's brand.
http://www.rei.com/product/716799?preferredSku=7167990014&cm_mmc=cse_froogle-_-datafeed-_-product-_-7167990014&mr:trackingCode=2BA6DB8E-0419-DE11-B4E3-0019B9C043EB&mr:referralID=NA
Terry
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Performance update - Bike is smooth, comfortable, and confidence inspiring. 8) One bad thing - I took the bike down some hilly roads near my house to bed in the brakes. At the end of a small downhill I was looking at the rear disk while braking (I know – dangerous) at about 10 mph I could see what I would consider too much flex. I do not know if it is flexing more because I have a 185mm rotor or not. I think I will be in the market for an aluminum adapter. :( Just when I thought this beast was ready to go...oh well. I guess it will be that much more fun when it is finally complete :)
Bummer. 185 is kind of big for a rear disc, but that shouldn't be a problem. Could you feel the flex? What direction was it flexing? Seems to me that most of the force on my disc adapter is in-line with the plate, but I also have spacers between the mount and the brake itself that rest flush on the dropout, which probably eliminates most of the twisting torque. You could try that (i.e. use bigger washers or whatever you used).
Matno - When I finally got the bike out on the trail I had to fiddle with the avid speed dial adjustments to get rid of the no modulation feeling. After that on a long downhill (the reason for 185's F&R) I heard something - like a stick stuck in the spokes. It turns out the water/ mud from the ride got into the carbon adapter (it was two pieces bonded together) started to de-laminate and my caliper flexed far enough to get pulled into the disc. It was pulled into the 'spokes' that connect the brake track to where it mounts to the hub. Rotor was too far out of round to fix (it was a used gen 1 rotor anyway). I made an adapter out of aluminum and got some stainless spacers instead of the washer technique and all is well now. I also switched over to EBC gold pads - what a difference! I didn't think a pad change would make such a difference.
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Here are new photos of the aluminum adapter - it has been on for two seasons now and trouble free. I may take it off this winter and cosmetically modify it a bit :)
(http://idriders.com/proflex/coppermine/albums/userpics/10115/normal_100_0278.jpg)
(http://idriders.com/proflex/coppermine/albums/userpics/10115/normal_100_0279.jpg)
(http://idriders.com/proflex/coppermine/albums/userpics/10115/normal_100_0280.jpg)
(http://idriders.com/proflex/coppermine/albums/userpics/10115/normal_100_0286.jpg)
Dull and boring but it works!
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Try a 145 quick release for tandem bikes. REI carries Bob's brand.
[url]http://www.rei.com/product/716799?preferredSku=7167990014&cm_mmc=cse_froogle-_-datafeed-_-product-_-7167990014&mr:trackingCode=2BA6DB8E-0419-DE11-B4E3-0019B9C043EB&mr:referralID=NA[/url]
Terry
That's one ugly skewer. I decided to file down the Hammerhead to match the dropout. Took forever by hand, but now the spring will fit in there and it works great.
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I fitted a 3mm ally plate inside the drop out. It required the caliper adapter to be thinned everso slightly where the bolts mounted through it. I drilled 4 3mm holes in the 'eye' and used 12 x M3 allen headed bolts to mount it, plus obviuosly the QR.
The whole thing was slimmer and neater than yours ( Juicy 5's 160mm) , however It also suffered a degree of flex, with almost exactly the same issue that you had. The trailing edge of the caliper mount was pulled in to the spoke / machined area of the disk.
I was able to mount the leading edge of the caliper adapter inside the eye of the dropout, and when tested it seemd OK, with, as you say, the rotational forces all inline.
I had to bin the allu plate and went with steel, again in 3mm. Its mounted almost identically, but everso slightly lower to avoid the lipping and increase the contact area by a few %.
It obviously was harder to fabricate, but using an angle grinder clamped to my workbench , and holding the steel in molegrips i was able to shape it easilly.
The steel plate has done maybe 300 miles and has shown no flex whatsover . I sprayed it with a rattle can of black enamel spray like hammerite and so far its held up . If doing another I would fit slightly longer than M3 x 12 , maybe get 20 and cut them to suit. Also as I drilled then tapped in from the flat side the tapping was slighlty arkward as the opposing dropout got in the way abit and made keeping it all square difficult. Acces to a large post drill would have been even better as drilling through the radius of the eye is tricky with a hand drill, even starting woth a center punch and using a 2mm drill bit in my fingers it always wanted to walk off in one direction or another.
Rob