K2 / Proflex Riders Group
General => Tech Forum => Topic started by: Proflexman on November 01, 2006, 06:44:14 am
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Well for nearly a year my carbon steed has sat in mums garden shed where I used to worship it.
But its time to rebuild it and take some pics for you.
I cut out the strut running from the headstock to B/B reducing weight by 1 lb 4oz.
I know it looks like a Klien to those diehards.
The cables and brake hoses run through the frame thus keeping the smooth lines of the frame clear.
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could not find the rear shock bolts today so its off to the nut and bolt store.
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You are scaring me!!!!
What do you mean you cut out the down tube? Are you trying to compete with the TV show "Lost", and keep us wondering?:-)
Terry
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Nope I did do it.
I laminate the frame with five layers so I am very confident that it can withstand it.
The headstock was strengthed.
I have raced on the frame since I did it and all was fine.
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need some photos!
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The orginal build is in my pics on here just use your imagination with the rest
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Hi Dominic, have I missed somethiing here or did you really discard a third of your frame? Mrs Tel likes you as you`ve made me go very quiet for once. I`ve checked the date and your`s may say april but mine still showing november 1st. I must have not read it well hang on......
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Nope still reads the same. What with a saw and pointy things? Now I understand why on the 16th of october you were asking about painting carbon, you`ve painted it see through. cut it up with a saw?
Tel
With a saw?????????????????????????????
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You are scaring me!!!!
What do you mean you cut out the down tube? Are you trying to compete with the TV show "Lost", and keep us wondering?:-)
Terry
L-O-S-T i think the writers are wondering as well! lol
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Come on Tel, whats all this about Nov and April.
I have not painted the frame okay.
But it is going for a re-spray in full gloss laquer.
Honest the strut from the headstock to the bottom bracket is no more.
The cables and outers and the brake lines now run through the frame!!!
Its kinda a wierd ride not having that strut there, but worst of all is that I cannot attach a dog poo deflector.
Tell you what when its finished and we meet up you can have a spin on it.
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Hey Dominic, I would be interested in knowing what you will use as lacquer. I sprayed mine with a Poly urethane automotive clearcoat which eventually chipped away.
Now my 4500 looks like raw carbon ( unfinished and not shiny)
What lacquer do you suggest I use to make a better bond with the carbon.
Nice to see you back Dom.
and it's good to be back.
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When spraying m/cycles and yachts I sometimes spray wet on wet two pack.
But you need a warm room 64 degrees min.
I use an automotive two pack lacquer, just a cheap one.
But if its for flexible parts you will need a plastiser to allow the lacquer to move with the part.
Polyurathene is no good, except in conditions where you may wish to use the bike as a coffee table !!
Your not are you m8 ??
I have sprayed yachts with a poly paint because it durable on surfaces that dont get abuse.
A bike frame takes alot more bashing.
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Hi Dominic, stick some pictures on, I cant wait until the meet time, I`ve got to see this mate.
You are brave, what the hell started the idea in you head? How did you know it would work?
Cheers, Tel.
Your sure you did`nt paint it clear.
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Tel you should read my threads of a few years ago when I was in contact with K2 I asked them permission to take a mould of the carbon frame.
At first K2 refused then they allowed me to make one.
I am sure Kiwi or Simon has some links to the threads but bare in mind some are very long.
Alot of the work I did I sourced from many of the guys on here for information like Kiwi and Simon, Callum and a few others.
My pics on the gallery show the end bike as it was untill recently.
I work with composites so working with carbon is quite easy.
It was getting the head angles right.
I found that fitting a 100mm fork to the bike upset the geometery of the bike and one had trouble jumping and riding over logs.
I went back to 60-80mm of travel and the ride became much better straight away.
But to be honest the companies have it sorted now and for me to produce carbon bikes would need heavy investment.
I still want to make this Ti swinger one day.
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Hey Dominic, you must have been posting this while I was searching the thread out, found it on page 83. I suddenly rememered someone stripping a frame to its bare rib cage and rebuilding it, and it was you. Was this the same proflex? After reading all your adventures with that frame if anyone knows about cutting a frame up its you mate.
So I`ve called off the men with the white coats and butterfly net. Bet you never managed to do the same with the camera you knocked of the bench at the time though smart arse.
Cheers and much respect mate, Tel.
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how hard do you think it would be to manufacture the carbon outer skins in some sort of volume?
I wonder if there is a market to make these bikes again - not in particularly large numbers - as some sort of co-operative for us lot.
callum
rds
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A thoughtful question.
The mould would cost about £700 and you should be able to manage runs of about 20 frames a day.
I spoke to the company in st annes chapel in Cornwall that manufacture moulds for people.
I spoke to the manager at length about the process.
You could use the ballon then lay up with a semi cured carbon then close up the mould and vacum the mould to draw off excess epoxy thus reducing weight further.
It could work but you would need to take moulds of the large and medium frames.
I believe the swinging arm mounting point would need re-designing.
and head angles need altering to run a longer fork.
As for customers, I dont believe you need to limit yourself to only these lads.
Did you know that the moulds for the carbon K2 frames are still out there!!!
I was in contact with the company that made them and they asked me if I would be interested in them!!
Trouble is the frames were hot moulded then cooled.
Perhaps one could locate the frame mould.
I am still interested in continuing my work with these frames.
Even the original frame build used too many layers of carbon and to get thickness and strength they used a heavy coarse weave.
Where as people like a finer weave as this is more pleasing to the eye.
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okay mould at worst £1000
I would use one layer of the carbon coarse weave then follow up with one layer of 450gsm weave.
Each roll 25 meters ish £7500.
Lightweight epoxy £500 a barrel 45 gallon though you may be able to buy semi cured carbon.
The chap that built Chris boardmans bike runs Colin lewis cycles in Paignton Devon.
His advice would be usefull.
You would also need to pass destructive tests which is law so thats two frames for each size.
£30k at least
One weeks pocket money Callum
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so realistically what would the long run cost of a frame be per unit? Obviously depends on how many are sold I suppose...!
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If we could locate the original moulds and apply for patents then we have control.
I believe that John Landseratt at K2 said something about an open patent on the frames.
Not sure what this meant.
I assumed it meant that should K2 wish to re-make the frames at a later date the open patent allowed them to.
He did say that in a board meeting that K2 had been following the threads on here and had been watching my threads about the carbon frame and that they had no intention of making them again.
And when they saw my finished frame they allowed me to build them on an open patent which could be revoked if I were to run into trebble figures each month.
The bikes could be sold as frame shock and swinger.
Prices well its early yet and depends on demand but from £1500 each and would depend on the quality of the finished article.
Afterall you may wish your frame sprayed with a colour, so there would be no need to apply the finer weave, because you would not see it.
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I'm definitely *not* interested in doing this as a business* - just as a co-op online friendly thing to see if we can do it. I'm happy selling springs and stuff but I run it so that it doesn't make any money, like as a service to the proflex comunity.
If we could get the cost down to say, £15k and then got 25 people interested then I'd be happy to do the distribution work and some of the manufacturing design/ supervision for no fee etc.
that way, we won't annoy K2 who own the patent for the techniques and geometry being used, we won't upset the trademark holders and also we are sending a clear message to K2 that if an online community is this serious about building k2 like bikes then perhaps the board of K2 might want to reconsider the mothballing of K2 bike.
* the reason i wouldn't want to do this as a business is because of the insurance risk and also, past carbon mountain bikes have always been fraught with risk - Faith racing from Leicester in the UK made their frame way too expensive and K2 bike were ahead of their time but made a mistake with the non-weatherprooven smart shocks.
any thoughts?
cheers
callum
rds
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Poll.
How many on here would like an Ozx Ozm.
Which models and size would you like.
Painted or shiny carbon.
I am counting rough numbers so kick ur m8s butt and wake him/her.
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i wouldnt mind another oz, if you need one to make a mould from ive got a medium you could use. what i would REALLY like would be a carbon swingarm for the xpx that uses sealed cartridge bearings and is disc ready! and would bolt straight onto a normal shock rather than using a cone or maybe just a replacement strut assembly (been looking at the carbon struts on a fisher today which is where i got the idea from!)
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Oh Jeff would you like cream with yours !!!! :-)
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yeah, and i want first lick!!
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i must admit i think the strut assembly is the weak point on the strut bikes, how many people on this forum would like to swap their ods or noleen for a more modern shock. without having to make the adaptor themselves?
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yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes ... did I say yes
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And your answer to the rest of the question Orange is !!!!!!!?
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yes
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Well Callum going on the number of times Orange has replied with yes, I assumed he alone wants 40 assemblies.
So this should be quite viable.
We just need to slow his enthusiasm down ( a brick should do nicely ) a tadge.