K2 / Proflex Riders Group
General => Tech Forum => Topic started by: Dennis on August 23, 2005, 10:21:05 am
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ok, i may be opening a can of worms with this thread, but i have been using twist shifters for a while now, but still remember when i used trigger shifters and how easy they were.
so, there may be a new winter project in store, esp. since i see that sram is still making 8 spd. shimano-compatible triggers.
here is the question: how many of you use triggers? how many use twisters? which do you prefer (if you have tried both) and most importantly, why? thats really what i'm looking for, WHY would you use one over the other?
thanks for the info. i await your wisdom.
[smiley=groucho.gif]
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Convensional Trigger shifters for me,
Thumb to shift down,
have tried both,admittedly a while ago,
couldn't shift down and brake at the same time (I'm a one/two finger braker),
didn't feel comfortable with my short(ish) levers,
just my personal preference but this is
an interesting thread Dennis,nice one, looking forward to the rusults
Simon.
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I've tried both. My first MTB had twisters. Now I've got triggers (XT) but my second Proflex has twisters (I ride it occasionally). They're the SRAM 8-speed ones that are Shimano compatible. (Attacks?) They work very well, but I'm more of a fan of the triggers now.
I've also tried the new SRAM triggers. Didn't quite get used to them in the short time I rode them but I can say for CERTAIN that I liked them a lot better than Shimano's integrated brake/shift levers. Yuck. A bad idea that will probably go away in a couple of years...
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Rapid Fire and Rapid Fire Plus guy myself (finger and thumb levers independant of each other).
Why? They always came with my bikes. They worked great compared to thumb shifters (subjective, I know).
Grip Shift? Interesting story - last week I was completely ready to go out and buy a set of SRAM whatevers (soooo many different ones!) untill I realized ONE thing. This ONE thing now has me in great debate with myself and i'm having THE most difficult time "getting over it". What is this ONE thing?
When you grab the brake and want to shift a few gears. How do you turn your wrist while you're braking?
It's too much of a one-or-the-other situation for my liking.
I know, I know! You should be using the front brake more and that shouldn't affect rear dearilleur shifting operation. But sometimes you just run into this situation. For me - I like to use the rear brake to scrub speed (which is most of the time) and the front for hauling things down in a hurry. I know - i'm backwards.
That's my story and i'm sticking to it. If I can change my (bad?) riding habits then I might give it a try, but it would be out of necessity, not love.
For reference - this is based on experience with Grip Shift in real-world events, not theoretical happenstance.
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Grip shifts on all my bikes. Had the old thumb shifters back in the '80s and went to twist shifters and stuck with them. Never even owned a bike with triggers.
2 bikes have Sram with Shimano rear Der. and 2 are Sram/Sram. That Sram/Sram setup has a terrific smooth and precise feel.
As for shifting while braking; I'm not sure if I ever shift while braking or not. I try to keep my hands on the grips and off the shifters when braking so that the weight shift doesn't cause an inadvertant shift. If I'm shifting gears, I need power, so I'm not likely to be braking. You have to pedal to move the chain anyhow, so are you pedaling while brakiing? I don't think so.
Ok, I'll shut up now.
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You have to pedal to move the chain anyhow, so are you pedaling while braking?
Actually, I do that all the time on my road bike. I'll brake for a traffic light, but keep my pedals rotating in order to downshift so that I'll be in a lower gear when the light turns green and I have to start from a stop. Doesn't happen (at least not that I notice) on my mountain bike.
I have noticed though that I occasionally shift accidentally when I'm using the twisters. Only when standing and cranking under power, but that's the worst time for an inadvertant shift. Can't imagine how much more noticeable (and annoying) that would be with the "half pipe" shifters SRAM was making for a while (do they still make those?)
What's really annoying is that my bike with the grip shifters has a rapid rise XTR rear derailleur. Very confusing, even after riding it for 3 years.
Also, it has multiple clicks for the front derailleur - ostensibly to allow for "trimming" it, but my triggers never need trimming with their 3 clean, precise clicks. The extra clicks are confusing as heck to my wife (it's technically her bike), and don't seem to help much at all.
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Twist shifter here!
I like my brake lever FAAARRRR away from my grips for one finger braking. I am having an issue with my 957 XTR/Alteks in this manner. I like to slide my brakes where I want regardless of where I put my shifter. I can't do this on the 957. Not that I hate triggers, they just feel wrong.
Anyway, I love the sram rocket halfpipes on my Oz. I actually grip the shifter for lifting the front end when hopping and jumping without sliding the grips off. One gripe I have with carbon bars is that grips don't stay on. Problem solved, the halfpipes clamp on well.
Aslo, I can shift without reaching for anything, and am good enough that I rarely shift accidentaly(it is usually to late to survive anyway). And yes I can shift while brakeing very easily, another attribute of the halfpipes.
I can upshift or downshift faster with twistshifters. I just can't stand pushing the levers a million times to get where I want.
So I will be going 100% twistshift in the future. Hope I can still get halfpipes.
Terry
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Rapid Fire Deore on my Marin from about '88 onwards.
Grip Shift SRT600's on my XP-X (856) from '97 onwards
Rapidfire XT on my 4000se since last year
Grip Shift (X9?) on my 5500 since last year.
Verdict?
I have always disliked the Gripshifts on the XP-X despite riding with them for 8+ years!
When I got the 4000se with RapidFire I immediately realised just why I disliked the grip shifts:-
3 clicks on the left hand to move up/down one cog on the front is confusing and extra/fewer clicks can inadvertantly be done.
Can't brake and shift at the same time.
Off road shifting means twisting the wrist out of line with the bars and judders cause pain and big hits can cause the hand to come competely off the bar!
I quite often have achy wrists after a long off-road ride but none with the Rapidfire!
Inadvertant shifts from clinging onto the bars for dear life!
Loud "clicking" noises as I shift!
Rapid fire likes:-
Smoother shifting
Quieter shifting.
More accurate shifting.
So, funnily enough I'm in the market for a set of Rapid Fire shifters for both the XP-X and the 5500, probably XT on both.
Seperate shifter pods as I have Magura 33's on both.
Also, I'm interested in "Rapid Rise" experience from anyone? i.e. the reverse "low-normal" standard.
I like the concept but am concerned that the spring pressure alone won't always move the mech, particularly in muddy conditions. On "high-normal" systems I sometimes find that the chain is reluctant to drop onto the fastest cog if things have got a bit dusty and dirty.
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I like my brake lever FAAARRRR away from my grips for one finger braking. I am having an issue with my 957 XTR/Alteks in this manner. I like to slide my brakes where I want regardless of where I put my shifter. I can't do this on the 957. Not that I hate triggers, they just feel wrong.
I'm a long time Twist Shifter. My new bike came with the SRAM X-9 Trigger Shifter and I love them. I too like the brake lever FAAAARRRR away from the grips. The new SRAM triggers allow the placement of the shifter on the inside of the brake lever like Rapidfires or outside of the brake lever like twist shifters. My bike came from the factory setup in the Rapidfire position. I moved the SRAM trigger shifter to the twist shifter position.
I also like the shifting action which is thumb to shift up and thumb to shift down. My single digit index finger is always on the brake lever.
The 1:1 ratio of the SRAM is amazing. I ran over a stick and bent the hanger and derailleur. It still shifts all 9 gears. Not as fast as when it was straight but still very ridable. I had put on a new hanger and derailleur but decided to put back the bent stuff just in case I run over another stick. I'll wait till the thing won't shifter properly at all.
My Shimano XT derailleur would never shift all 9 gears after it got bent.
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As for shifting while braking; I'm not sure if I ever shift while braking or not. I try to keep my hands on the grips and off the shifters when braking so that the weight shift doesn't cause an inadvertant shift. If I'm shifting gears, I need power, so I'm not likely to be braking. You have to pedal to move the chain anyhow, so are you pedaling while brakiing? I don't think so.
Ok, I'll shut up now.
I'm always shifting or ready to shift whilst braking,
whilst braking your losing speed (obviously) once you've slowed the likely hood is you will then need to accelerate again,the gear you where in is most likely to be to high hence alway pre-empt the gear you require,something I've always tried to instill in my son,
the times he's hammered down a hill come to a stop/tight corner,
then when he's gone to move away yep he's in top gear trying to shift down (not good),I always try to
turn my cranks slowly whilst downshifting and braking,
just second nature now,very rarely caught out in the wrong gear,works for me,won't work if you've locked the rear brake but once thats happened your braking has just become inefficient.
Simon.
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hmmm... interesting
my 2c's worth - ran xt triggers back in the 90's, then tried sram stuff. had x-rays [not bad - even with an xt derailleur] then 9's [with a 9sl derailluer - much better], now i have x.o, shifters and deraileur.
i also am not sure if i shift while braking [regardless, it doesn't cause me a problem]
and i don't have trouble with shifting inadvertently [another apparent concern].
all in all, i'm more than happy with what i run, the only hardware i would shift too ;) are the new x.o triggers.
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Just had an interesting ride. If I may.....
I can see why there's one improtant consideration to take with this comparison. The shifting/braking thing is something that's different for everyone. It's not arguable as everyone has a set way of doing this. I DO pedal/downshift while braking. It just makes sense for me to try to "set up" for a hill - especially when there's a "blind corner". This hapened to me tonight - twice. 'Round the bend - shift, shift SHIFT!!!!!!! [smiley=laughing.gif] I didn't know the trail like the back of my hand and I had to do my fair share of attacking the shifters.
So, one merit I DO have to give to twist shifters - if you make a "mistake" you DO have one saving grace - the fact that you're not limited to shifting only 3 gears at once (for the cassette anyways). This could easily be the one thing that gets you through the gears fast enough to have you pedalling ahead of the competition, rather than having them blow you away up the hill.
I exercised using more front brake tonight - I think I was gripping the bar too tight to be worried about shifting if I had a grip shifter. That and body english I would probably have been "all over the place".
Anyways, just thought i'd share with a bit more of a broadened, experienced and educated reply.
Gary - quit stealing my lines! ;D
So Carbon - made a decision yet? [smiley=laughing.gif]
Okay, I'LL shut up now.
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I had only used grip shifters until I tried my buddy's bike with triggers. I've tried it a few more times since then because I'm ready to buy shifters for my 5000 project and concluded that I like the twist better. I'm sure this is personal preference more than anything else, but I've found:
- It shifts just like a motorcycle throttle. That probably sounds strange, but that means I don't have to THINK about shifiting.
- It's fast to move as many as 7 gears at a time if you're in a hurry
- With practice, you can brake and downshift at the same time
- I've never shifted by accident (SRAM!)
I'm amazed that so many of you guys have bikes with both types and can move between them without trouble. I think I'd probably twist the grips clear off the handlebars before I remembered I was using triggers!
[smiley=laughing.gif]
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ridden them all. sram trigger shifters are my favorite. all thumb action, all the time.
...........................anthony.
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triggers! I think it's just that i got used to them, usually use xt stuff cos it works and is not too expensive or fragile. I almost switched to twisters a couple of years ago after a novice rider destroyed my shifters with brute force and ignorance, i realised at the time that twisters internals are much simpler so probably more durable.
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Ha!
My new gripshift centra 8 speed shifters came and I installed them last night. Not before I weighed the XTR triggers against them.
The set of gripshifts are 50, you heard right, 50 grams lighter than the XTRs. Now that was with extra lenth of cable to boot.
Then I went out for a ride to dial them in. :-* [smiley=laughing.gif] [smiley=beer.gif]
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the problem with getting on-board this late in a thread is - do i have anything useful to add?
well, i dunno - but here goes.
had xt triggers on one of my earlier bikes, then went to twisters. basically because i didn't like the monopoly shimano had, didn't like how they were SO complex, and was a weight freak.
have stuck to them ever since. running x.o twisters and and x.o deraileur currently. however... i would like to upgrade the deraileur at some point [carbon cage version] and may well look at the x.o triggers at the same time.
my buddy at the local bike shop who is a primo mech has just recently done this, and i'll be catching up with him next week so will ask him what he thinks.
oh, and the braking/shifting issue - i've never experienced it. i just don't do those things at the same time, never have. it's all about anticipation...
good heavens, i've just noticed i have already responded to this question! some time ago it would seem [smiley=laughing.gif]
So forgive me for doubling up ;)
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I'm twisty guy. My brother had triggers. I like twisty's better because:
1. I can shift from 1st to 9th and 9th to 1st in one smooth action. (I too ride motorcycles) They are like my Campy's on my road bike in this respect.
2. Upshift as fast as Shimano, and down shift faster, which is more important to me.
3. Way simpler design means more reliable, and easier/cheaper to maintain.
4. I am anti-Shimano, and SRAM is a US company (even if they aren't made here).
Now I had Old 600s? on my Iorn Horse MT100, then the then new 9.0 shifter/derailuer put on my then brand new Proflex 2000. Raced it for years and loved them. And now I have X.0s on my 5500. I love them, but I have a hard time setting up the shifting. I find I have to dial in the rear derailuer while actually on the bike. I think there is an issue with the hose length. But I don't see accedentally shifting those things. Being a sport biker I use my front brake pretty heavy, and brake with the oppisite hand I am shifting. Or so I think . . . Either way it works for me. I'm a twisty guy.
Rich
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Couldn't resist an update to my earlier statement about preferring twisters over triggers.
I decided to put triggers on my new bike and after about 3 months, I still prefer twisters! I can't wait until one of them breaks or something...
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Triggers!
I found the twists to use to much realestate on the bar and had to much play between shifts.
I had twisters on my first bike and thought I would never use anything else until I was introduced to the triggers on my K2. never went back and never will.
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Hey Bill, I am sure you will break something real soon now. And I will help ya.
How is the kneecap?
So is Lance a trigger or twister?
Terry
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for what it's worth: I used to have twisters (X9), but on my new bike were (and are) triggers (XT). Triggers work well, but the twister lets you shift more up and down in one action, but more important: with twisters i had more control during high speed and technical rides, because you can keep your thumb firmly around the grip and still steer, brake and shift at the same time. Whe you shift with triggers using your thumb, your thumb isn't around the grip anymore and that feels less safe.
Jeroen.
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ive just put sram 9sl`s on the xpx i built up for my wife and they are soooo much better than the shimao deore. im now looking to put sram on my oz. maybe its just me but i like to be slapped into gear not dropped like shimano. the front shifter is far better when trying to tune out chain rub!! can anyone tell me if the trigger shifters are the same ie multi position?
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With the Deore LX triggers, you don't have the ability to do a quick "click" up or down if you find yourself dragging the chain across the front derailleur or something. They made the barrel adjusters easy enough to use while you're pedaling, though. You still get the adjustment, it's just a little more work.
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i'm using the new sram xo trigger shifters (i broke my x9's so i broke my bank replacing them) and think they are the best shifter set i've ever tried- they are surgical in precision.
while i've never really liked the grip shifters i notice that speed goat bicycles is building their custom bikes with sram trigger for the rear derailleur and a twister for the front. i suppose for the 'trimming' that matno mentioned? might be a good idea!