K2 / Proflex Riders Group
General => Tech Forum => Topic started by: Johnny_Bravo on June 15, 2005, 07:36:44 am
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Alrighty folks, well I'm sure it's been gone over a million times here I couldn't come up with much useful info while searching here or the web. So, I'm looking to upgrade the fork on my Trek VRX which came stock with a RS Judy XC that I've always thought was a bit lacking compared to the rest of the bike. I'm sure most of you have seen the Noleen/Girvin Crosslinks that eDiscountbikes.com has been selling for a while now and I've been eyeing them up lately as the prices seem to be pretty decent and apparently are strong units. I'm a clyde so strength has always been a concern & the Judy XC isn't always known for that. Anyway, here's the link for reference:
http://corporate.marketworks.com/storefrontprofiles/deluxeSFshop.aspx?sid=1&sfid=100961&c=40000754
Anyway, I guess my first question is: What is the difference between the different units eDiscountbikes.com is selling (EXP, Elite, Girvin)? Also I'm wondering if one of these will fit my bike: 1 1/8" steerer tube, 145mm headtube length (I'm guessing the "Tall" version would fit; my frame is a Large fwiw). I'm kinda working with a budget (in college) now so buying the latest & greatest fork isn't an option right now, but I'd like to upgrade to something pretty decent for a good price if at all possible. Any other info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance...
-Big Ben
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Well, hmm. Are you looking to just do XC style of riding? are you ok with around 3" of travel on the front (3.25-4" if you want to do a little modding). Are you ever going to want front disk brakes? Do you want to do BIG drops? ...
What I'm getting at is - What are you looking to improve upon? I've had several styles of X-Links and Chubby, Fox etc.... The best X-links to start with (if you can aford them) are Carbon legged versions ( NR2 or Smart shocks = CS - Carbon Smart, etc..) . They are strong, can be trusted to convert to disk (alum can too - just be sure to distribute the load, etc..) and they look nice. The other flavors of X-Links are aluminum style that differ in the type of shocks that are in them (and color :) ). Tall or short - your choice there. You can run talls on any frame that the shorts will work on, you just need to do a little shimming and/or adjusting (or cutting :) ) - etc.
If you are looking for a-lot more trav., 5 inches and up, I'd check out ebay. There always seems to be newer forks up and some you can get real cheap ;) . It just depends on how much you want to spend.
Let me know if you decide you want x-links, I have a few extra that are new in the box and are going to go up on ebay - along with some extra Pro-Flex frames that I have. I'll list them here on the board as I put them all up in a few days. Good luck on your search.
-Wankel
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Love those X-Links!
They are stiff, stiction free, quiet, and sport a high cool factor.
My disk conversion works very well. Recently I upgraded the mount and can't wait to get 'em back on the bike.
Here's the problem: I bought the EXP version from eDiscount (white aluminum) and they came with a 200# spring. I blow through half my travel in static sag and the rest of it when I run over an acorn. For me at 205 pounds, I think a 250# spring would jsut about do it. Finding the right spring has proven to be a BIG hassle. So I'm riding my Zokes Z1's for now.
Good luck matey!
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Hiya Johnny,
I have a set of long easton alloy girvins/noleen xlinks with a 200lbs coil spring and NR2 unit (nitrogen charged) with compression and rebound adjustment for just £40. Has bearing cups and aheadset parts and an alloy V-brake booster. In gwo. Bargain! I am in the UK, in East Sussex. Selling as have upgraded to carbon xlinks.
here is the link:
http://idriders.com/cgi-bin/YaBB_K2/YaBB.pl?board=news;action=display;num=1115582404
cheers,
Dan(http://idriders.com/newforum/YaBBImages/grin.gif)
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the tall forks are for xl frames that have a taller than average headtube. the standard forks are perfect for a large frame. i'm assuming since you're in college you don't have a lot of tools for modifying things.
the exp have a nr-1 shock which only has preload settings. the elites have a nr-2 which has a rebound dampning knob. the girvin is a '97 version of the '98 and later noleen forks.
i'm a clyde also and the fork is great for xc, but not for any other types of off-road riding. if you want discs, then you should probably look at a telescoping fork.
due to the alum. legs being weaker than the carbon crosslinks, bob girvin said that carbons were the only forks he'd recommend for discs. that said, many riders are using discs on their alum crosslinks and seem to have no problems, so far.
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Thanks for all the great info guys! Typically I ride XC and light trails as that's really all that's available here in MD within a reasonable distance. So I was looking for something that had at least as much travel as the Judy XC that's on the bike now (only 80mm), but more than that I'm looking for something that's stronger in construction. The Judy XC is known to have a weak crown and it's heavy for what it is too. Not to mention it flexes a lot more than I'd prefer. I'm a clyde too so I'm not into big hucks and whatnot as I don't want to trash my bike (or myself for that matter) and I'd be wary of the Judy snapping on me.
I still run v-brakes (stock Avid's which work just fine) so running discs isn't a big deal although I'd like to go that route eventually. If funds permitted I would admittedly probably go for a Marzocchi MX Comp ETA or Pro ETA (120mm versions) as they seem to be great all-around XC forks that can take a beating & are reasonably adjustable. Clearly though their prices are out of my range right now & I don't know if my skill level would really permit me to use them to their full potential yet (although would allow me to improve my riding). The Noleen/Girvin units though definitely seem to be good quality & the prices eDiscountbikes.com is selling them for are pretty tempting. Is the '97 Girvin any less of a fork than the '98 Noleen Elite? As-in: are there any significant differences? I notice that the head tube measurements are just a bit different in their specs. $99 for the Girvin Elite vs. $149 for the Noleen Elite is a big difference if they're essentially identical (both seem to have the NR-2).
Wankel, what kind of X-links do you have? The carbon ones seem to be the way to go from what I gather. BTW, nice FD in your avatar! I owned a '94 Touring (brilliant black/tan) for a few years. Stock other than an M2 dp, A'PEXi N1-dual catback, and manual boost controllers. Man I miss that car :( Still have quite a few friends in the rotary circle one of whom is in the process of building up his 2nd FD with a 20B (being built up by Roger Mandeville right now). Another friend works for Jim Downing Racing in Atlanta who race the Mazda Kudzu 4-rotor cars. Good stuff. :D
Thanks again for all the help guys!
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Welcome to the club!
I have a CrossLink ELT on my 3000. Love it. Still using V's - no problems.
I'm in the same predicament as you. Simply put, I want more travel.
Let it be know, I LOVE my CrossLinks...
...but right now i'm eye-balling a Manitou Minute 2:00 REALLY hard.
Yes, sacrilege, I know, but travel is travel.
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Hey,
Go the crosslink option!!!
I recently upgraded my crosslink ELT's to noleen chubby LT's then to rockshock judy's
Now this weekend I'm rebuilding my old crosslinks and fitting them back on the bike! They just handle so much better than the chubbies or the judy's.
The whole experience was expensive [smiley=dead.gif] and a waste of time. The crosslinks are great, not perfect, but damn good forks anyway.
I don't know what posessed me to change them in the first place!! [smiley=diaper.gif] Temporary insanity!
I must learn that if it's not broke, don't try to fix!!!
Plus crosslinks still look cool and turn some heads, especially in Australia where no one has em! 8)
Cheers, [smiley=beer.gif]
Luke
PS- I have some cheap chubbies and judy's for sale now!!!! [smiley=laughing.gif]
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Hi,
I bought a set of Carbon Crosslinks from eDiscount and they're great!
As everyone else has said here, the cheaper crosslinks should have the NR-1 on them and the more expensive ones should have the NR-2, mine came with the NR-5 Smartshock and boy am I impressed and I definately notice the difference if I forget to switch it on!
All respect to Will, He's mentioned the problem with his forks before, all I can say is, I weigh just under 200lbs and so with kit on I allow for 205lbs on the bike and the 200lb spring on my crosslink is spot on, 10% sag, plush and doesn't bottom out.
Several options,
1. Will's got a seriously underspec spring.
2. Will's bathroom scales are lying to him....<GRIN>
3. The forks are possibly wrongly installed.....(...pause for torrents of abuse from Will........) <GRIN>
Will, maybe you need to talk to me about getting a different spring? Maybe even a Titanium one? Where are you? I'm in the UK.
Have a look at the Crosslink helper I posted in the "files" section ... http://idriders.com/proflex/files/crosslinkinstall.2.jpeg
This will help explain the difference between "standards" and "longs" also see my other postings on this subject. Just measure your head tube length to see which you need. If you don't need longs then don't get them because you'll have to ride with a heap of spacers if you want them to work properly.
Carbons are not much lighter, but are supposedly stronger than the Ally ones, but are much more expensive.........
p.s. I only do XC and a few little jumps and bumps.
Crosslinks are definately still Cool!
Col.
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Johnny B.
Carbon or aluminum, either way you can go under 3 pounds with a disc mount IF you use Ti bolts.
Then you've got the lightest and stiffest suspension in the world. Heck, maybe I'll go put mine back on tonight!
Colin,
There's something seriously amiss with my crosslink springing. The spring is labeled "NR-200" and tests out as a 200# spring. The installation was very straightforward as they were brand new last fall and I put them on an 856.
I did cut the headtube down somewhat to reduce stick-up, but maybe I missed something.
There are just a few things that are "odd" about these:
They're "EXP" models - Never seen or heard of them except on eDiscount bikes.
The spring rubs on the flare at the bottom of the head tube.
While I'm a Clydesdale, you can see my 14 stone and fork installation...
(http://idriders.com/cgi-bin/album_k2.pl?photo=Will/MVC016S.JPG)
Any thoughts you have are welcome. Also, can you sell me a 250# spring? (3" x 1.875"). I'll be in the UK in the next six months...
Will
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Sorry Johnny B (Good?)
Will and me are taking over this thread..........but it all helps.........doesn't it ?
Hmmm, Coil shouldn't be rubbing on headtube, but that's easy for me to say and harder to understand.....again sound like geometry is out......
"EXP" means they're "Expert"s, "ELT" means "Elite"s, an EXP comes with an NR-1 and the ELT comes with a NR-2. (or is it the other way around....?)
It's possible eDiscount have got "bastardised" versions that K2 had laying around and may have all sorts of kit on them........I'm a bit concerned that some of them look like they've got a "tall" shock on a "standard" Fork. A tall shock has a whole load of exposed plain silver bar below the coil.......
http://corporate.marketworks.com/storefrontprofiles/DeluxeSFItemDetail.aspx?sid=1&sfid=100961&c=40000754&i=53953009
like this one, but interestingly enough, it doesn't look like it's got the "tall" ULM (upper link Mount).........
The NR-2 has a Knurled Nut on the bottom to adjust something (rebound I think), the NR-1 doesn't.
Otherwise the forks are the same (I'm pretty sure)
I'll try and source a 250lb coil and let you know. As I've said before that is theoretically way too heavy for you on those forks and I seriously think you need to check you've got your "critical measurement" right. (No, that's not your inside leg measurment!) check out the installation helper and confirm that measurment for me.
How did you test the coil?
A 200lb coil should do for riders weighing 160-200lb so it's possibly a bit light for you but, 14st is only 196lb so very close.
A 225lb coil should do for riders weighing 190-230lb so maybe a better match.
A 250lb coil is for riders over 230lb
Col.
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Johnny, can I see you comb your hair really fast? [smiley=laughing.gif] (cartoon reference)
Ummm, it's all Colin's fault.... because he admitted it. ;D
Colin - the CrossLink in the pic you linked IS a bastard. It's listed as a "tall" unit, however, it has the ULM from a carbon. It's not either of the ones listed on the Install Helper. The carbon bike's (as in not necessarily the fork alone) had a different ULM than the common AM or OEM pieces.
The ULM on that fork in particular is definetly not the same as the one on my Way Big 3000, which has the original fork still installed (ELT). You can check my gallery for reference.
Can anyone tell me why i'm only getting 2" of travel, and everyone else is getting 3"?? I feel inadequate. :-[ No, really, anyone?
Johnny - FWIW, it's not like it's a lot of money at stake (subjective, I know). Compared to buying something for double the price, you might think it's worth a try. Worst case scenario, you sell it on E-Bay (try here first!).
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LoL I got the nickname from an ex-coworker when I had my hair bleached blond and all popm'd up like that. Just happened to wear a black t-shirt that day too and since I'm kinda built like that (used to lift a LOT) it just stuck. :D
Anyway, thanks again for all the positive info guys! I've been researching this a LOT lately as I really want to get out and ride some more difficult trails. But I just don't trust the old (pre-SRAM) Judy XC to hold up to my size. I like how the Girvin version looks compared to the Noleen version as my bike is bright green and the dark grey Girvin would look better.
Is the '97 Girvin Elite any different than the '98 Noleen Elite? Meaning: would there be any disadvantage going with the older Girvin? The choice is purely asthetic at this point. I don't see that they have any carbon forks left, but may be wrong.
I've also been reading up on the Noleen Mega Air forks (particularly the '01 with the VTB). With up to 100mm travel that might be a better option to pair with the 5"+ rear travel of my bike. However, all of the new ones eDiscountbikes.com had are sold out so no luck there.
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Go Johnny, go go go...
Colin,
There's no knurled knob, so I'm guessing this is an NR-1.
And the coil spring actually says "NB2-200" (oops)
I tested the coil on a spring tester at local spring factory. She's dead on 200#.
The set-up is rock simple, so it's not like the shock is upside down or bolted in the wrong place.
It appears the headtube rub is coming from the 856 headtube being too short. This collapses the parallelogram to the point where the spring barely contacts the frame. This can be solved with spacers, but will cut travel since the swing links will start out more parallel to the ground. As it is now - at rest/no sag - the swing links point steeply downward.
I'll mount it with ~ 1/2" spacers between the upper headset race and the upper link to see if that works. Bench testing & geometry show it probably won't help, but I'll try.
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LoL I got the nickname from an ex-coworker when I had my hair bleached blond and all popm'd up like that. Just happened to wear a black t-shirt that day too and since I'm kinda built like that (used to lift a LOT) it just stuck. :D
Anyway, thanks again for all the positive info guys! I've been researching this a LOT lately as I really want to get out and ride some more difficult trails. But I just don't trust the old (pre-SRAM) Judy XC to hold up to my size. I like how the Girvin version looks compared to the Noleen version as my bike is bright green and the dark grey Girvin would look better.
Is the '97 Girvin Elite any different than the '98 Noleen Elite? Meaning: would there be any disadvantage going with the older Girvin? The choice is purely asthetic at this point. I don't see that they have any carbon forks left, but may be wrong.
I've also been reading up on the Noleen Mega Air forks (particularly the '01 with the VTB). With up to 100mm travel that might be a better option to pair with the 5"+ rear travel of my bike. However, all of the new ones eDiscountbikes.com had are sold out so no luck there.
HAHAHA! That's great! Did I ever fluke that one.
Between the Noleen and Girvin pieces - i'd say go for the Noleen. I'm not as familiar with the Girvin pieces, but if it's the same as I remember, with the Upper Link Mount (ULM) attached to the stem...... nah, don't like the sound ofthat, personally. If you need to change stem angle - then what? Hey, looks or not, if you can't ride comfortably, then it's pointless, right?
Also, correct me if i'm wrong, but you seem to be targetting mostly the forks that came as OEM with the K2/ProFlex line-up through the years. That's nice to see. I really respect that.
FWIW, eDscount also has Noleen Chubby's up for grabs every now-and-then. They haven't had the Chubby LT's that i've seen, only the "standard", but more food for thought if that's you thing.
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Ha?
There's no diff between a 97 girvin and a 98 noleen fork!!!!
Have a look in my gallery! On my GT town bike I ride a 97 girvin and it is just the same as later noleens.
What you are talking about is far older girvins, which have cnc milled levers. 97 girvins have casted levers as noleens.
CU
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Ah yes, sorry about that. I keep forgetting about the Girvin's. My bad. Apologies. I guess the "retro" in me is showing.
Nice gallery, btw!
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Hey Johnny Bravo... and Colin if you're still tuned in,
I strapped my Crosslink EXP's back on to the 856 today. Of course they look way aggro. Mucho macho, etc.
However, after spacing out the upper and lower links with a 3/8" stack ring, the sag got even worse! Standing next to the bike and just giving it a good "parking lot lean" I can actually bottom these forks out. Grrr. Somethin' still ain't right.
Anyhow, they look terrific and I only ride every week or two. So there they stay. For now.
Cheers,
Will
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Thank you FrankD!!
I hope my FR K2 Disco Monkey will soon complete my family.
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I think eDiscountbike.com may still have some carbon Crosslinks with the Smart Shock in stock (found a link on mtbr.com), but sadly they're a bit out of my price range & I only found it in the "short/regular" version so it wouldn't fit anyway. :( They sure do look flippin' sweet though. :P Did the carbon Crosslink ever come w/o the Smart Shock?
If I do go the Crosslink route is there a source for heavier springs for the NR-2? Being a clyde I'd be concerned that the stock spring wouldn't be up to the task of dampening my 250lbs.
FWIW I uploaded a few pics of the ol' VRX into the gallery. I'm sure a nice carbon Crosslink would look pretty rough and rugged on the front of this big ol' thing: http://idriders.com/cgi-bin/album_k2.pl?album=johnny_bravo